Site News :: DSL v4.4.1



Quote (roberts @ June 19 2008,03:48)
I too really liked the murgaLua interface. Tiny core would have been a great host for promoting it.

But.  I was warned about the Puppy connection very early on. I chose murgaLua based on merits and not the assocation. I guess I was wrong.

I still think there is no GPL violation. But at this point, would I want to trust a major portion of my stuff to an individual of that character.

So sad.

It's so easy to write someone off as being an evil monster of some sort. Look, people have good days, bad days. Sometimes misunderstandings happen. I'm sure JM had high hopes of DSL supporting his project, and felt they abandoned him.  The license garbage is probably trivial, and only became an issue due to the (pathetic) interchange.  I'm guessing he cares about having his name printed all over the place about as much as you do.  

I suppose there's a perverse pleasure in concluding that the other person is of inferior quality to oneself, leaving no recourse but rejection.  That's the way of the world, after all. Yeah, it's sad.

BTW, this was all handled in John's mature post...IMHO it should have been left right there.
This issue is off topic. This post is my last on the matter.

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It's so easy to write someone off as being an evil monster of some sort.

Do you mean the way others were so openly accused of violating licenses that weren't violated? When does such behavior in its own right become a violation?

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Sometimes misunderstandings happen.

Yet Murga never apologizes for his misunderstandings. Nor when he's shown that his code was untouched. Etc.

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The license garbage is probably trivial...

It's not garbage. I explained in the post to which you replied that I needed to start my own distro why it isn't trivial. It's not trivial from either side of the equation. I didn't attack Murga and I didn't respond to him in the same manner in which he responded. What seemed to irritate him the most is that I picked up what he wrote (repeatedly) about his feelings that the sum of the whole had been refactored so the individual parts were freed for uses more suitable to our needs. I get the fact that his feelings were hurt, and that probably led him to use the license as grounds for lashing out.

Big problem with that. The GPL doesn't protect his feelings. I'm not being a hard @$$ about that. It's a legal document and it doesn't exist for the sake of his or anyone else's ego or psyche. The P in GPL is for *public*, not private. The license protects his rights but it also gives the user a set of rights as well. He isn't free to interpret the P in GPL as "private." It's very obvious to me that he still believes he can do that at his own discretion, that he can attach strings and bitch if the bindings are separated.

With respect to the set of "competing" rights of the license (and contrary to the assertions, implied or otherwise, by others that I might be a little stubborn or one-sided on this issue), I asked Murga to explain specifically what was different from the way things had been done before and what it would take to resolve the issue wrt putting his copyright in a suitable place. He never addressed either issue but instead lashed out at me, at Robert, at the entire community.

On the other side of the equation, it's why I also defended what was done: the license allows the *user* to make the kind of changes that were made over and against any wishes of the developer so long as the other terms of the license are respected -- and at no point has he shown any offense except that his feelings were hurt. Robert posted florian's compile-time changes. Robert posted some of the code Murga claimed was altered; I've posted the full file on a page at my blog (haven't made the page public yet but I'll link it later).

I also posted more about this on my blog yesterday. Like how the SFLC would look at this situation and if they'd have any interest defending users against threats from developers when developers usurp the freedoms they give the users when they put their code under GPL. Whether they would or not doesn't change the fact that Murga chose the GPL and then wants to pull the rug out from users when they exercise their rights in a responsible manner.

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I suppose there's a perverse pleasure in concluding that the other person is of inferior quality to oneself, leaving no recourse but rejection.

Do you mean that in the sense that Murga posted links about reading comprehension instead of dealing with fair questions about what happened and how the GPL allows for that kind of thing to happen? How he inferred that the community was somehow beneath his dignity and he wished he knew what we "where" (sic) like before? Or his implication that DSL needed his permission to use his GPL'ed (*public* license, not private license) code in the first place or even now though Robert has established no changes were made where he suggested?

Or the "perverse pleasure" of stirring up sh*t and then starting a thread in at least one other forum inviting people to watch for their amusement? That's what Murga did instead of handling it in a more productive and mature manner behind the scenes -- it was something that could've been quickly and easily settled if he were so inclined. It's pretty obvious that he wasn't so inclined.

jp, I have a lot of respect for you and others who spoke up. Please don't suggest this was a one-way street or imply that Murga has been victimized in any manner. Murga was NOT wronged in any way or shape or fashion. He's not the one who's been demonized or maligned. He's the one who came here and did that to others.

Look more closely at the other side of it. DSL didn't change code as he said -- but DSL *was* willing to change his code for him to give him more attribution in it than he had coming into this. DSL didn't remove his copyrights, but DSL was more than willing to work with him to put it in suitable places (but not for code he didn't write -- they don't have the latitude to give him props at the invocation of things he did not write). DSL didn't choose his license, he did. DSL didn't write his code, he did. DSL isn't under any obligation to cover his butt but was more than willing to do it. DSL entertained taking care of things for him retroactively even though they only had to abide by what was clearly written on the matter (which was nothing) at the time of the refactoring. Look through the locked thread again and count how many times I raised the question of what was acceptable before the refactoring. Then listen to the crickets chirping...

Like I wrote yesterday, DSL tried to mend a fence they didn't break. DSL has bent over backwards to accommodate him.

edit/addendum:
Whether DSL chooses to use murgalua in any form -- one of DSL's choosing or as its author insists it be used -- is worthy of discussion, and part of that decision has to include whether it's worth any future hassles with him. He's also publicly mentioned that he may relicense the bindings, which means we'd be stuck with the versions he GPL'ed. So that, too, has to be weighed and the forking option becomes more attractive if he does that. Then the bindings could be used as we see fit and, if anyone is so inclined within our community or beyond it (perhaps there's interest among other lua users), developed and matured so they're even more useful.
Quote (lucky13 @ June 21 2008,00:26)
This issue is off topic. This post is my last on the matter.

I (& I suspect many others) really hope you mean this. You have now started spamming another thread - just to get the last word in. Why can't you just drop it & let us get back to moving DSL forward. The licensing issue is one for Robert & JohnA to decide with JohnM. If you don't like what they do you are as free as the rest of us to walk away from it all. Just stop banging on & on about it - go & post it on your own blog if you think anyone is really interested.
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You have now started spamming another thread

I've done no such thing. edit - I addressed a couple points and tried to explain it as objectively as possible. Sorry that bothers you.

edit2... never mind, have it your way. I'll leave you to work on it yourself. Have a nice day.
No. It was jepters who wanted the last word. To try to defend JM.
If JM was rebuffed by his precious Puppy then decides to attack DSL, the one and only one project that was promoting his project.

DSL does not need murgaLua. DSL was using Lua/Fltk before there was a murgaLua.

There was no removal or lack of acknowledments of attributiion to JM. My concluding remarks and posts were to provide documentation to pubically refute JM's claims.

It was JM who wanted this handled pubically. It was JM who attacked. Even after several pleas to move to private email. JM did not. I guess several bad days, perhaps on a warpath to inflict as much damage as possible to the DSL project?  And not just here but in other outside forums. Did I got into his forums to provoke?

Even after JA's olive branch, JM wanted more attribution than required by the very license that he chose.  Even though that single file, the target of his publically posted infraction.txt, already has attrubtion by way of acknowlegments, referencing the source of murgalualib. JM wanted more; plus strings.

Even after getting "his way" his posts continued to antagonize and provoke. It is JM who wants all future correspondence to be via an "ambassador". So by his very request. Let it be.

Your snide remark about me having my name printout as compared to JM is, well, what can I say. Birds of a feather.

JM actions has caused the DSL project to be in a mess. His actions were uncalled for. Handled in a way that I was pleading to stop. All of this ill will could have prevented.

From the documents that I posted, it is obvoious that they never was anything untoward, nothing removed as claimed,  and that attribution was and is in fact already there.

But I guess jpeters is fine with the way JM handled this.
jpeters is fine with the state that the DSL project is currently in.

By jpeters ignoring the locked "it is done" topic post and wanting the last word to defend JM only suggests to me that he would have handled it in the same way. I find that indefensible.

Enough already.
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