Not For Profit Needs Help!

Forum: User Feedback
Topic: Not For Profit Needs Help!
started by: clivesay

Posted by clivesay on Dec. 31 2003,21:02

All -
I am a beginner to Linux. I am considered a power user but no very little about development except for some VBA in Excel.

I am starting a NFP in my area to donate computers to needy children in the community. Many of the computers donated to date have been 486 and Pentium I machines. If anyone thinks there are still not many out there, I have accumulated nearly 30 of them in a matter of weeks!

I have been doing a lot of research on Linux and think it is the real answer for my organization from a cost and compatability standpoint when it comes to older machines.

I really like what I have seen from DSL and Morphix. I easily ran the live CD verion of DSL on a PI 133 with 64 meg of ram.

My question is if I install DSL on PC's, can I easily configure the desktop to look and feel very similar to Windows? Has anyone used XPde as a front end for DSL?

For the little kids, I think that the PC will have to look very similar to their PC's at school to truly be effective.

I am a little intimidated by all of the command writing that seems to be necessary with Linux. I am a command prompt novice.

I am really excited with what I have seen but I feel like I have a huge learning curve ahead of me.

Can anyone give me any direction for what I am wanting to accomplish? I really want to use these older machines to help kids.

Thanks alot!

Posted by CappyCaffeine on Jan. 01 2004,03:09

I think that it is wonderful you are taking an active part in helping children less fortunate than others.

Linux is a great way to help accomplish this: cost effective and malleable for young minds to find interesting, but hopefully not overwhelming.

I am running DSL on a Pentium 233 with 64meg EDO-RAM, circa 1997, and it runs great! Most of it configures itself after you do the hd-install listed in the FAQ section of the website.

You probably want to get a few additional programs installed on your systems such as word processing and some modem support. Modem support may be dicey, specifics about the modems would help us help you.

an excellent program to help install additional software is synaptic which does work with DSL. There is a warning about some programs breaking the X-server, but so far, so good.

all you need to do is type "apt-get install synaptic" from one of the command lines after the hd-install and doing it as the root user, and then type "synaptic" at the command prompt.

You will then be presented with a multitude of additional programs that can be installed through a graphical window.

You could install bonsai linux that is a 'true' debian derived distribution that is compatible with all of the packages listed by apt-get and synaptic. This is another way to get Linux on those old machines.

Good luck!

Cappy

Posted by clivesay on Jan. 01 2004,16:12

Cappy -

Thank you for the support and the information. I think I will take the time to really develop (I use that term loosely!) DSL for my old computers.
I will have a TON of true beginner questions so I hope you will all be patient with me! I have evarything from a 386 to a P3 450mhz machine.

Thanks!

Chris

Posted by davide on Jan. 01 2004,18:22

Hey Chris,
congrats for your idea. May I give you some suggests?
using Linux is a good way to give new birth to older machines.
Still, older machines are..old :

so keep in mind that what's true for WinBlow, say..newer applications don't run on older pc, is valid for linux as well.
In general, we can say that for almost all newer applications, linux has a text-only version working from consolle that can be used on older pc and get the job done. But that's not usefull for kids, who want to have a pc that looks like other people's one. Else they would be disappointed and perhaps feel frustrated.
So, as for instance, XPde it could be a good choice, (I don't know if there's a debian package to download through sinaptic, hope so) but it is not as light as fluxbox. Fluxbox is the lightest (or among the lightest) desktop manager in linux.
So you probably have to start thinking of different "settings" for different hardware.
On 486 fluxbox is probably the best choice.On a P200 or P266 XPde can work well.
Wordprocessing: On 486 I would recommend an older version of Abiword. Others MSword-like programs are heavier (openoffice, kwrite).
It's like WinBlows: if you have win95 on a 486, you hardly can get a Win98 working on it... If I were you, I obviously would try to get some old ram banks of memory to add to the pcs. That would help a lot. I suppose some trashware shop could give them for free to you, if you ask as a NFP.
Another reason for choosing dsl is: it boots up recognizing hardware like no other distro: once you have your hardware working, you can install. And you're sure that it will work. It's not like that with other linux distributions.

A hint: there are some NGO's working on similar projects internationally. They may give you an advise on what to install on older pc, how to tune them to the best, and so on...
Here is one < EWB-ISF >
Keep up the good work

to Cappy: just curious (I'm not an expert). Isn't dpkg -restore a needed step in dsl before apt-getting synaptic?

Posted by cbagger01 on Jan. 01 2004,20:52

If you want to use a Window Manager that works well on older computers AND is easy to use for people who are familiar with Microsoft Windows™, try using ICEWM window manager.

It is a small, fast window manager and it has characteristics that are similar to Windoze: A "Start" menu button, a taskbar at the bottom of the screen, and the same kind of window title bar buttons (IE: Minimize, Maximize, Close).

I recommend using the "Brushed Metal" style theme to give the desktop an unmistakeable Linux appearance, but with all of the familiar MSWindows-like trinkets mentioned above.

If you want the computer to look like even more an MSWindows clone, you can always install one of the Fake95, Windows95, Silver XP, XP, or XP New themes.

Check out the Freshmeat.net themes website for more details and screenshots:

< http://themes.freshmeat.net/browse/925/?topic_id=925 >

Posted by John on Jan. 01 2004,22:10

Clivesay, good luck on your NFP. There is at least one other out there refurbishing PCs for charity and putting DSL on them. I have to agree with Cbagger01 that ICEwm would be the a good choice if you want an environment that is familiar to win98 users.

Back in October I flirted with incorporating ICEwm as a window manager option, even made a prototype ISO, but then I ended up scrapping the idea because of size constraints.

I just want to put a word of advocacy for sticking with Fluxbox. While it isn't familiar to those transitioning from Windows, it is very easy to use, and a very work efficient environment. Some time back I was reading an old newsgroup post about a man who had Blackbox on his computer. For those who do not know, Blackbox is what Fluxbox was originally based on and they are very similar though Blackbox has less features. When the man was away on business he left his PC on and his mother came over to take care of his plants and such. His mother never used a PC yet was able to navigate the Blackbox environment enough to send him an email the first time she sat down.

I think people think the standard MS-like environment is easy to use, but they are confusing familiar with easy. Give people the slightest amount of time a menu available at anyplace environment and many will never reach for the "start" button again.

Posted by clivesay on Jan. 01 2004,22:14

You guys are giving me a lot to consider. Thanks a lot for your input! Tonight I plan on dedicating a machine and installing DSL on the hard drive. After that, I will see what I can do.

Please keep an eye on this post and I'll post any issues/questions I have that I can't find in the other posts. When I get this moving, I can even post screenshots of what I have been able to do.

I know my big issue is going to be learning my way around the commands and understanding the structure of Linux in general.

Part of what has drawn me to Linux is seeing how helpful everyone is.

Thanks again.

Chris

Posted by Ken on Jan. 01 2004,23:30

If your building PCs for kids, you might want to look at this LiveCD distro:

< http://www.ofset.org/freeduc-cd/ >

Already set up with educational software, but probably needs pentium class PCs to run

Posted by clivesay on Jan. 02 2004,03:18

Ken -
Great info! Thanks!

I looked at the website. If I am understanding Linux correctly, Freeduc has the same base as DSL. That being the case, I can take the individual packages and install them into DSL? That may be a better route for me. I think I like the DSL desktop better.

I think I would like to have a good base OS and then be able to add packages based on the capabilities of the system. So a high-end computer could be jam packed full of cool software and a low end computer can be stripped to the minimum.

My idea is that anyone who is brought into the program would be able to check back and get an upgraded machine as their computing needs change. That way I can keep the PC's recycled through the organization and literally use them until they die.

I really want to get this thing going. I am getting ready to distribute my first few PC's loaded with Windows 98se. That's not really the direction I want to go. I just got through wrestling with a Windows install on an older computer for a friend!!

Chris

Posted by cbagger01 on Jan. 02 2004,06:54

clivesay,

If you are looking for a Linux distribution that can be stripped down for older computers, yet packed full of software for the newer machines, I would recommend a Debian based Linux system like Debian (Official Version), Knoppix or Damn Small Linux.

Debian systems have an advantage because it is very easy to install packages (new programs) to your computer from the Debian servers on the Internet. If the new program that you selected requires some other additional programs or libraries (aka: Program X DEPENDS on program Y and Z in order to work properly), the installer will know this and automatically install all of the required stuff.

And even more important: You can easily upgrade your existing programs to the newer versions via the same Debian servers.

As for Window Managers, I like using Enlightenment and Fluxbox because you can access your "Start" menu by clicking on any part of the desktop that is not already covered up by a Window. For ICEWM and MSWindows, you need to drag your mouse pointer all the way down to the bottom left corner of the screen and click on the "Start" button in order to get this menu.

So there are definite advantages to abandoning the MSWindows-style desktop. But if you want people to use a different style, you will need to spend some (short) amount of time training them.

Good Luck

Posted by davide on Jan. 02 2004,13:02

just a word about IceWM. Great Window Manager, but I have it on my debian 486 and I found it is not as light as I expected it to be.
It is very familiar, thought (you're right John, familiar does not mean easy).
for debian: good suggest, but stripping down a distro can be more difficult or time-consuming than adding packages to dsl, i.e.
Starting from consolle and adding packages via apt-get needs the skill of knowing about linux file system..and so on..it take sto be familiar with it.
just my humble opinion.

Posted by clivesay on Jan. 02 2004,16:40

All -
Loaded DSL to the hard drive of a Gateway 133mhz with 64mb of ram....Installed flawlessly! I don't have speakers on it so I don't know if the sound it working.

One question is how do you install packages from CD/floppy if the computer is not connected to the net? I was going to install AbiWord last night.

If anyone has a good resource for learning the very basics about using commands in Linux (DSL specifically) I am all ears. I don't want to bore you all with the same old questions everyone else asks!

As far as the distro and packages go, I would ideally like to have multiple verions of DSL with packages installed that I could readily install based on system requirements. Maybe something along the line of a Lite, Medium, Heavy (similar to Morphix). With the number of PC's I am dealing with, I don't want to recreate the wheel every time I do an install. Like I said, right now I have almost 30 machines!

Hope this makes sense. Thanks

Chris

Posted by CappyCaffeine on Jan. 03 2004,20:49

It is nice to see all the additional input posted under this topic. I think DSL is a Damn Fine Linux distribution (perhaps it should be "DFL"? but the package installation may bite your attempts. But, then again, it may not!

A similar distribution that is 100% Debian based is Bonzai Linux (http://www.gnulinux.de/) and a review of version 3.1 here: (http://www.cahtech.co.nr/reviews/bonzai31.php).

The upside is that it will be able to use all of the available debian packages to install additional programs. The downside is that the installation of Bonzai is taken from Debian: Text Installation and requires you to know what hardware is on each system. It is much more complicated than DSL which autoconfigures most things for you.

I think with most vintage machines, if you install programs that run under GTK and avoid those that require or need a functioning KDE desktop, you may be able to achieve your goals.

I would suggest that you figure out what additional packages you would like installed into DSL and find a friend who has a broadband internet connection and a CD-R writer. You could then create a "master" CD with the additional packages you want. Synaptic and Apt-Get can download the packages and their dependencies (other packages needed for your requested package to install) and keep them on the hard drive instead of just installing and deleting them. You could then burn the downloaded packages and install them en-masse from the CD.

Just a thought! Good Luck!

Cappy

BTW: Yup, you do need to do a dpkg -restore before getting synaptic!

Posted by clivesay on Jan. 03 2004,23:29

Thanks, Cappy.

I think I want to stick with DSL. I like the way it installs and I really appreciate the time that people have taken to respond in the forum!

I have a broadband connection so that is not a problem. My main machine runs with an Epox DDR mobo and Athlon 2600+ chip with high end video and sound. I took the leap last night and partitioned it for Linux distros.

I would like to do exactly what you suggested as far as having a "package" cd(s) that I could pull from based on system requirements.

The only catch I am having right now is that DSL doesn't seem to like my USB mouse. When I get to the desktop view, it doesn't do anything. Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Chris

Posted by CappyCaffeine on Jan. 03 2004,23:34

re-run xsetup.sh in your root directory and make sure you enable USB mouse support. If this doesn't work try the following:

How do I configure USB mouse in XFree86-4.0?

Add these lines in /etc/X11/XF86Config-4

Section "InputDevice"
Identifier "Intelli Mouse"
Driver "mouse"
Option "AlwaysCore"
Option "CorePointer"
Option "Protocol" "IMPS/2"
Option "Device" "/dev/input/mice"
EndSection

Cheers, Cappy

Posted by clivesay on Jan. 04 2004,02:32

All -

I am on the net with Linux for the first time in Dillo! I am really impressed!! This will sound like the pathetic ranting of a "newbie" but I can't believe the effect on my PC. I am running an Athlon 2600+ cpu with a volcano 9 fan planted on top of it. When my PC is running in Windows the fan RPM's sustain at around 4500. Now that I am in Linux, the fan is running at 3100rpm!! I am shocked! No wonder Linux works well on older PC's! Cappy -
Here is a dumb question but how do I add the lines in XF86Config? I found the directory in the file manager but it will not let me edit as root. Should I bring this up in another app? Remember, I am a beginner! Thanks

Posted by Oops. I goofed.. on Jan. 04 2004,04:23

Actually the USB mouse section should look like this in XF86Config, not XF86config-4.

Section "Pointer"
Device "/dev/psaux"
Protocol "ImPS/2"
Emulate3Buttons
ZAxisMapping 4 5
EndSection
#USB addon
Section "XInput"
Subsection "Mouse"
DeviceName "USB Mouse"
Protocol "IMPS/2"
Port "/dev/input/mice"
Alwayscore
EndSubsection
EndSection
##end USB addon

This should enable your USB mouse.

How to do it:

Start Scite and then File->Open..

./ = current dir
../ = directory above <- this one until you see /etc

Hit /etc then /X11 then load XF86Config.. make sure the above lines are included. Save the file hen exit from Fluxbox or hit Ctrl-Alt-Backspace (This kills the X server GUI and then restarts it)

Your mouse will hopefully work now!

What kind of mouse do you have?

BTW: I have an Athlon 2600XP on an Asus A7N8X deluxe Rev 2.0 with 768MB ram, DSL really runs fast on it too!
But I was able to ressurect a Pentium 233MMX with 64mb RAM and am able to use it as a web server courtesy of Monkey. Way cool!

I was able to install an HTML editor called Bluefish that works perfectly with DSL. It is a snazzy little distro.

Cappy

Posted by CappyCaffeine on Jan. 04 2004,04:31

Oops, I goofed again.. the above message was from ME!
;p

Posted by clivesay on Jan. 04 2004,13:43

Cappy -

I may have misled you. I entered all the info you gave me but my mouse still didn't work. It may be important to note that I am using an Optical mouse. Will that make a difference?

Specs are:

Logitech optical
Two buttons
Scroll wheel "can be used as button"

Sorry for the confusion. Your directions were very easy to understand. Thanks again.

Chris

Posted by CappyCaffeine on Jan. 04 2004,19:04

Say.. I was wondering, is your mouse plugged directly into your computer or through a KVM switch? Some of the KVM switches are not recognized by Linux. I had to switch to a Belkin to get my mouse working on my setup.

Cappy

Posted by clivesay on Jan. 04 2004,19:17

I plug directly into a USB port on the back of my PC. I was fishing around in another forum and they gave this solution for a Labtec optical mouse:

< http://koala.ilog.fr/anyboard/MouseWheel/posts/1454.html >

Didn't know if this is an option.

Thanks, man

Chris

Posted by rob.rice on Jan. 04 2004,22:57

Quote (cbagger01 @ Jan. 02 2004,01:54)

Be veary carfull with any thing from MS thay have and WILL Sue NFPs!!!
Just because your a not for profit dosen't mean that MS will not Sue you !!
Thay will even sue school systems over stupid mistacks !

Posted by Parinis on Jan. 10 2004,15:53

About KVM switches, we are a bunch using DLink's. All of us use two mice because of switching probs regardless of op system.