Whats the problem?

Forum: User Feedback
Topic: Whats the problem?
started by: compaqjohn

Posted by compaqjohn on Sep. 30 2004,21:21

I have been using Linux based system for over a year now and have had a problem with just about every distro I tried and find myself in forums alot to seek answers. Why is the Linux community so hostile when it comes to helping new user?
Most users will give directions to help rather than give help.
I constantly read replys to people's question with "this has been posted before, go look for it" Is it not as easy to type the command line that could solve the problem? Surely one can appreicate that when you are new to a computer O.S like linux you need all the help you can get and fast. I have been using computers for 20 years and deal mostly in the MS camp and it is rare to see short, sarcastic answers in those forums

Please be a little bit more helpful to the new, as the new will eventually become old and have to deal with the young!

Posted by AwPhuch on Sep. 30 2004,21:30

Quote (compaqjohn @ Sep. 30 2004,17:21)

There is a little button that will save alot of those "flaming" posts bud

< http://damnsmalllinux.org/cgi-bin....=00;f=1 >

I know that it seems ppl are very short winded, but when the ppl in these forums that actually do care, and do try to help anwnser the same question 8 times...it gets very frustrating

I along with many others are very happy to help but b4 you ask a quiestion see if someone has mentioned it b4...this goes for "ALL" forums on the web bud

Plus you learn linux alot faster if you give it a shot 1st, then ask questions...

-edit- Please let us post image links sheesh!!!!!!!!

Brian
AwPhuch

Posted by laughing_gas on Sep. 30 2004,23:49

It isn't a linux thing but a forum thing, there are always the standard questions which get asked again and again.

Watch this:
< http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting.php >

Posted by laughing_gas on Sep. 30 2004,23:51

>and it is rare to see short, sarcastic answers in those forums

No, there I bet people type v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y.

Just a joke.

Posted by Bad Command on Oct. 01 2004,01:31

The problems you discribe can be found on any forum on the internet. I personally hate people who post "Read the FAQ". It's always better to answer the question and link to the FAQ in the post. People have no reason to post short redirect answers like that in my opinion. Sure it has been answered before, but maybe the subject doesn't convey the answer or their eyes glanced over that particular thread (not hard when scrolling thru a few dozen of em).

No matter what forum you are in there WILL be repeat questions, why get angry? If there are NOT repeats then it means you have no new people and it's time to move on because that subject is dead.

Posted by max-ebb on Oct. 01 2004,03:04

Im a linux newbie and find myself asking questions that are very basic at times.
I do not agree linux users are not supportive, quite the opposite.
I always found alot of support and cameradie between linux users, probably cos we all share the same passion for this amazing OS and community.
that said, I think it would be a cool thing to gather the most common newbie questions and maybe post a frequently asked questions answered in the forum.
that would save both newbies and experts alot of frustration.

Posted by mikshaw on Oct. 01 2004,03:09

I believe if you're going to post a reply, you might as well try to be a little more helpful than just saying RTFM, particularly for a newbie who might not even know HOW to read a manual.

I agree, however, that it's frustrating to see the same questions asked numerous times, sometimes seeing the same question twice on the same frickin' page. A search can often give you more information than waiting for an answer in a single thread.

"Which distro should I use?" is probably the biggest annoyance, followed closely by "Which desktop?".

Posted by SaidinUnleashed on Oct. 01 2004,03:30

Quote

"Which desktop?".

my personal favorite.

Quote

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting.php

i haven't laughed like that in a loooong time. God, i love n00bs.

Posted by AwPhuch on Oct. 01 2004,03:30

Quote (mikshaw @ Sep. 30 2004,23:09)

I believe if you're going to post a reply, you might as well try to be a little more helpful than just saying RTFM, particularly for a newbie who might not even know HOW to read a manual.

How disrespectful it is to someone that takes the time and effort to write up a gorgeous manual (one that a monkey can understand) to say that....i know of many manuals and whatnot that have taken hundreds of hours to prepare only to have someone say "They might not even know HOW to read a manual"

Look at almost all Manuals, HOWTO, PDF files there are out there and say that you cant find out how to do it if you would take the time to read and try 1st...

Hell I learned how to recompile a kernel thru a forum and never once posted a "how do I" post, I can now do dvd -> VCD and back up my personal DVD and never posted a "I cant figure it out" post...I took the time to search the forum, READ THE FINE MANUAL, trial and error, and the occasional goofup followed by a reformat!!!

Dont tell me it cant be done, its just ppl are sometimes to lazy to try on thier own 1st (not that they are too lazy just want a quick fix or awnser)

Plus the RTFM posters know that the awnser to the question is already awnsered in THE FINE MANUAL

Brian
AwPhuch

Posted by WoofyDugfock on Oct. 01 2004,10:59

I'm a *nix virgin and have to say I have received outstanding help on this board in the newbie drama of trying to save my settings (now successful), mainly from the sainted Henk1955, who is obviously patient and a great asset to dsl. However I should point out that I usually indicate what I've tried when asking for help, and have learned some *nix basics as a result of a lot of googling and forum searching.

But searching the forums does not always provide a recipe-like answer, or a clear answer in any one place for that matter. Actually if you do search you'll find that a few people who have asked the same basic question as mine (how to save their settings) have got no reply at all. Of course, they didn't make clear what they were trying or the fact that they were obviously working hard at the issue.

I think the REAL issue is the lack of adequate simple DSL newbie faqs on the dsl website. This is not a trivial issue if people want to advance the success of dsl and *nix more generally. I promised Henk I would write a simple idiot-proof How To for saving settings and I will.

Phrases in the alleged "faq" such as "isolate the static components from filetool.lst" (say what?) are cryptic to say the least and don't cut it for us n00bs. You might as well say"frag the discombobulator". I know what it means now but that's easy in retrospect. Actually I don't think the introductory info ever bothers saying what filetool.lst really does (tells backup/restore what files to backup) - again, very obvious in retrospect. But not to a newbie.

And if you think I'm an idiot, bear in mind I actually have a minor in computer science (albeit a long time ago) and learned Pascal, Fortran IV and Compass assembler language to a fairly high level (not that I remember much). So just how to the other n00bs get on?

Laugh all you like but give newbies a hand so that dsl gets taken up more widely.

Posted by Downsouth Dave on Oct. 01 2004,11:22

Hi.

Sorry you've been brushed off, but I'm in my 6th year and
I feel users are on a scale of 1 to 5 with 1 being a newbie.
(i'm a 2 - basic competency). There are almost no 3's, so
quite a gap exists. The key, I think, is not to be too ambitious,
and work on secondary drives until you are comfortable.

regards,
Dave

Posted by Grim on Oct. 01 2004,11:39

Hey, it would seem, in my absence, that there are people other than myself who get tired of answering the same questions over and over, ad infinitum. Since the database has been migrated on these forums, some of my old answers aren't even on the boards anymore.

I still think we should make some of the better answers sticky and grouped in the HOWTO or READ THIS FIRST, NEWBIE section of the forums. It would prevent duplication of effort, and give a solid information to new users who want to learn how the distro works.

Also, for those of you who haven't read it and are new to Linux in general, you really need to read < How to ask questions the smart way > by Eric S. Raymond. It's a good read. Take the following, for example:

Quote

RTFM and STFW: How To Tell You've Seriously Screwed Up

There is an ancient and hallowed tradition: if you get a reply that reads “RTFM”, the person who sent it thinks you should have Read The ing Manual. He is almost certainly right. Go read it.

RTFM has a younger relative. If you get a reply that reads “STFW”, the person who sent it thinks you should have Searched The ing Web. He is almost certainly right. Go search it.

In Web forums, you may also be told to search the forum archives. In fact, someone may even be so kind as to provide a pointer to the previous thread where this problem was solved. But do not rely on this consideration; do your archive-searching before asking.

Often, the person telling you to do a search has the manual or the web page with the information you need open, and is looking at it as he types. These replies mean that he thinks (a) the information you need is easy to find, and (b) you will learn more if you seek out the information than if you have it spoon-fed to you.

You shouldn't be offended by this; by hacker standards, he is showing you a rough kind of respect simply by not ignoring you. You should instead thank him for his grandmotherly kindness.

Personally, I don't think it can be said any clearer than that.

Posted by reidar on Oct. 01 2004,13:01

I can see why people find it annoying to answer the same questions over and over. But don't think this forum has a record of being hostile at all! There are lots of people here who are willing to help out newcomers, even if they keep asking the same questions over and over, or at least point them in the right direction.

That being said, I believe that it is more important to read posts than to write them (at least for me that is). I have followed this forum for about half a year, reading looooots of posts, before I started writing anything myself. I am not sure if that is the best solution, but I have learned A LOT from reading the forum. IMHO this forum is one of the best and most useful forums I have seen. There is just so much to learn from reading the posts here!!!

Thanks a lot to all of you guys!

-r

Posted by compaqjohn on Oct. 02 2004,09:08

Well,well.. lots of different views
You know, if you see a question that has been answered before you don't have to bother reading or replying to it. I wonder if that is in the HOWTO for asking questions? Monkeys don't read or use computers so probably HOWTO should be written with a computer user in mind, I agree that there are some very good ones out there, but in general alot of them are very generic and very cryptic still and of course out dated. Having written does not give right of way to anybody as they are only the opinion of just a comsortium and one will find that very simple questions are still left unanswered. If howtos done the job they were mean't to do then forums like this would not exsist at all.

Posted by Rapidweather on Oct. 02 2004,17:01

From what I can tell in my community, there are going to be lots of Windows XP users looking for a linux (or mac) alternative. Met a lady this week with a Toshiba laptop running XP that had locked up, and she was thinking of running over the machine with one of her companies delivery trucks. She wound up asking Toshiba for a restore CD, as she has lost her's.
I have an XP box, and can't keep up with the updates, especially for Microsoft Office. (I don't have broadband) I had to send off for a service pack 2 CD, which Microsoft promptly sent.
---
So, we all need to be able to answer those questions time and time again, or
do like Grim does, and give a pointer to the place in the forums where that question has been answered. (How does he find those posts?).
---

Posted by cbagger01 on Oct. 02 2004,17:07

I'm guessing that he uses that little

"Search" button at the top of the page.

This is part of the solution.

The other part is knowing what keywords that you need to type in when you do your search.

I completely understand why a user is unable to find help for his problem if the forum topic uses terminology that he is unaware of, so he is also unable to do the search.

However, if he explains his problem as with "bootable USB", he should have no problem using those terms in the search process. So he is either unaware of the search button or decided not to use it.

Thus the friendly reminders for these people.

Posted by AwPhuch on Oct. 04 2004,15:57

Quote (compaqjohn @ Oct. 02 2004,05:08)

Well,well.. lots of different views
You know, if you see a question that has been answered before you don't have to bother reading or replying to it. I wonder if that is in the HOWTO for asking questions? Monkeys don't read or use computers so probably HOWTO should be written with a computer user in mind, I agree that there are some very good ones out there, but in general alot of them are very generic and very cryptic still and of course out dated. Having written does not give right of way to anybody as they are only the opinion of just a comsortium and one will find that very simple questions are still left unanswered. If howtos done the job they were mean't to do then forums like this would not exsist at all.

Thats the difference between a good community and a great community, no question goes unawnsered...the problem is the same question gets awnsered over and over and over and over and over and over again in different formats!

Its a waste of precious manpower and time (john does this as a hobby not as a business)

P.S. WinXP SP2 (LOOKOUT!!!!!! ITS KNOW TO CAUSE MORE PROBLEMS THAN IT FIXES)

Brian

Posted by bprize on Oct. 16 2004,05:59

on a scale of 1 to 10, this bbs is a 10 when it comes to support for us that don't have a clue what they're doing. :blues: