Why do I still do regular HD installs of DSL?

Forum: User Feedback
Topic: Why do I still do regular HD installs of DSL?
started by: clivesay

Posted by clivesay on May 16 2005,16:25

I have noticed lately that people are still doing regular HD installs and breaking or trying to remaster them. Many of us who have been around here awhile never run regular HD installs. We are either running from CD, usb, poormans or frugal. I actually have frugal installs running on P133's with 32mb ram. It would be great to get some feedback from the community to get an idea on how we can better educate the user base on the different options and possibly learn about some improvement areas.

Chris

Posted by AwPhuch on May 16 2005,16:44

Biggest thing is frugal, and learning what/how to backup stuff on a reboot..this is probably the biggest hurdle everyone (including me) need!

Brian
AwPhuch

Posted by newOldUser on May 16 2005,16:55

Good topic!.... I think this is a very misunderstood subject.

For me DSL was the first 'Live-CD' that I used. At the time I needed something to run on some old equipment that I had. DSL ran just fine as a 'live-cd' but then I thought, if it runs this good from a cd then it will run even better from a hard drive. I figured it would free up my cd reader, load faster and maybe use less RAM. The other thing that drove me to install it on a hard drive was... ALL OTHER OS's THAT I HAD TRIED REQUIRED THEM TO BE INSTALLED... I just figured that you had to if you wanted the best results.

The Forums and the Documentation section has done a pretty good job of describing How To do a particular installation (like frugal or poorman or USB) but I'd like to see one web page that shows the pros and cons of all the types of installation. Perhaps it could have some suggestions like, if you have less then 64 megs of RAM use the xxxx to run DSL or if you have no hard drive use yyyy method to run DSL, if you're runing on an intel 386-16 use zzzz method, etc.

Thanks for your interest.

Posted by namezk on May 16 2005,19:01

I did a hd install because it boots much faster than using the 1x cdrom drive I have (especially after I modified the knoppix-autoconfig file).

Posted by SaidinUnleashed on May 16 2005,19:42

Bah. You really ought to use frugal.

For most people, it will do everything you want it to.

Especially since the advent of the persistant /home and /opt directories.

Even I, the Great Bastion of Hdinstalledness and Lord Master of Hard-headdedness have switched to frugal now.
except on one box, anyway...
There's no reason to to a regular hdinstall anymore.

Posted by clivesay on May 16 2005,19:45

Quote (SaidinUnleashed @ May 16 2005,14:42)

except on one box, anyway...

SU, I read that fine print!!

Posted by SaidinUnleashed on May 16 2005,20:05

Still a 400% improvement (meaning my other 4 boxes are frugal'd).

^_^

Posted by Melancholie on May 16 2005,21:03

One of the best things of DSL is, that it runs from LiveCD (and from all other devices :-) But for me a HD install is the best solution, because:

1. DSL is faster (when booting, when opening a program; and I "only" have 64MB RAM)
2. It is the best solution for "lazy" people and people in hurry ;-) No Backup/Restore, no boot options, every single setting is like it was on last session
3. I can add every application I want (even programs that are not available as *.dsl or *.deb package)
4. I do not like CDs, DVDs and I hate Floppies (ok, sometimes they are very usefull but only for portable and exchange use ;-)
5. I do not have a pendrive or a compact flash
6. It is easy to do!

Oh, and my mom told me to and I always do what she says :-) :-)

Posted by clivesay on May 16 2005,21:11

Quote (Melancholie @ May 16 2005,16:03)

1. DSL is faster (when booting, when opening an program; and I "only" have 64MB RAM)
2. It is the best solution for "lazy" people and people in hurry ;-) No Backup/Restore, no boot options, every single setting is like it was on last session
3. I can add every application I want (even programs that are not available as *.dsl or *.deb package)
4. I do not like CDs, DVDs and I hate Floppies (ok, sometimes they are very usefull but only for portable and exchange use ;-)
5. I do not have a pendrive or a compact flash

This is exactly the type of feedback I was hoping to recieve. I encourage everyone to participate.

Options one and two can both be handled with frugal. backup/restore and boot options can be completely automated. With persistent /opt and /home there is alot you could add without hurting your ram usage.

Please post what you aren't finding in the repository.

Thanks again for the good feedback!

Chris

Posted by adraker on May 16 2005,22:24

I think it was Chris mostly who pushed me, hissing and
flapping, into Frugal.Never looked back.
But I agree with newOldUser, an overview and comparision
doc is a good idea. I'm very wonky on persistent anything.
Though I must admit, I haven't looked at "Lord Master of
Hardheadedness" SaidinUnleashed's doc's very recently.

Posted by clivesay on May 16 2005,22:30

After we get some feedback here I was thinking about doing a pro/con type doc that details all the options. I am always amazed that Frugal never gets a mention in reviews. It's the best kept secret here and maybe in Linux!

Chris

Posted by green on May 16 2005,22:51

Frugal. Just do it.

I messed up a few hard drive installs because I was learning. Once I understood the frugal thing on a CF or HD, there is no turning back. I'm either running live with restore and myDSL or frugal with the same.

Most people have been brainwashed into believing that a full HD install is "just how it's done." This is so not true. I had to be pushed by Clivesay and Ke4nt to get a grip on frugal. There's no turning back now.

Posted by ke4nt1 on May 17 2005,07:59

Good Work, Chris..

I have been following this thread with interest, and I hope to see
continuing feedback on this subject from both new and seasoned users here..

I'm especially pleased to see the positive feedback in some of the posts that
describe the appreciation of the power and flexibility in these types of installs..
And to see it coming from seasoned HDInstallers, who have used a variety
of Linux distros, makes it even more noteworthy..

I also began my "journey" into Linux by installing and poking around in
numerous HDInstalled distros, noting the parts I liked about some,
and disliked about others.. ( speed, managability, eye-candy, enhancement )

In the past, a "LiveCD" was usually nothing more than a "test drive" ..
Just another way to get a "safe" peek at a distro,
without jeopardizing the data already installed to your hard drives..
If you liked what you saw, then the "full" version was available for download,
or the HDInstall could be started from the LiveCD itself, and added onto later..

I feel that DSL is breaking out of that " image" , and filling a new niche..
It is not just "another knoppix knockoff" anymore..
( kudos to Knoppix and Klaus for the base from which this is built.. )

DamnSmallLinux is doing things today that simply would not work
with a fresh, downloaded copy of knoppix.. There is a great demand for
a distro that can work on anything from "atticware" to more recent
hardware offerings.. DSL fits in where others won't, or can't ..

DSL can do this because of it's size, speed, and flexibility..
The number of ways it can be installed, run, and transported ( nomadic )
make DSL a powerful tool , anytime and anyplace , on any box..

I feel that the key to using the power in these numerous options,
and it's ability to travel "while remaining customized, appended, upgraded, and tweaked",
are in the frugal/poormans/liveCD methods of operation/installation..

With a HDInstall, your locked into one box. Ok for a server, where you've
done all the prep work, set it up static, and now it sits and serves...
( data , files, web pages, music, whatever.. )
It needs little more than management and maintenance..
[ ..although I'm discovering that using a mkmydsl CD or frugal setup
for a server is actually more bulletproof, nearly as easy to manage,
and much more easily upgradable than a HDInstall..]
..That will be for another story, some other time..

But with the frugal/poormans/ installs, for an everyday desktop environment,
the creativity and flexibility built into it is just mind-bending...

All the effort a user puts into personalizing their environment,
adding the tools they like, their own colors and themes, choice of apps, etc..
all follow you persistantly from box to box, place to place, and day to day,
which is incredible, coming from what starts up as a "read-only" distro..

For example:
I'm at work, and there is 'my' desktop, with all my tools..
( could be from a USBkey, a custom mkmydsl cd, other USB storage.. )
I'm in my jeep, and there is 'my' desktop..
( and all the files I wanted to listen to, or my maps, or looking at fresh photos )
I'm at home, on one of my laptops, and again, there is 'my' desktop.
( and look, there is my backup from work, with some new stuff, on my FTP ! ..
I quickly download and restore it, now I've got it here at home too )
In my home office, there is another one of 'my' desktops..
My kids have 'their' desktops, here at home, at friends homes, at school..
( along with their music files, and a few new ones, I'm sure ;) )
Where are they? They are on USBkeys, or bootable DVD's, or CDRW's,
or IRivers, or cameras, or miniCD's, or card readers, ... whew..

They are NOT stuck on some hard drive, in a CPU case, under my desk...
I am NOT dreading what might happen if a hard drive fails..
I am NOT dreading upgrading all this stuff when the next new version
of DSL comes out, in fact, I'm eagerly awaiting its release !
I am NOT worried about losing all my personal files,
or all the time I spent tweaking this one 'so schweet' ..
I am NOT spending any time or effort backing up entire partitions or
images to some large media or format to have an updated backup of my
stuff, like I try to remember to do with "other OSes" ..

Folks, it's ALL about the OPTIONS..
Whether they are stored on your backup, or typed in "on-the-fly" ,
or installed onto whatever media you have, they are the
innovative additions that give you such creativity and customizing ability
to mold this little distro into whatever you need, wherever you need it,
on whatever hardware you have to do it with..

I feel that you lose, when you choose to use a typical hdinstall.

" but I don't want to have to type all that in every time I bootup"
You don't have to, it can do it all by itself.. but if you want to , you can.

" but I'm lazy, and don't want to have to backup every time "
You don't have too, it can do it all by itself, but if you want to , you can..

" It's so much faster when I install it to HD"
Come play with my toram installed version..

" I only have XX ram in my box "
Tiger Direct is selling 256 meg sticks of ram for $1.99 , go get one..

" How do I make XYZ run automatically? It's easy with a HDInstall .. "
Chances are , there are 3 or more ways to do this with a frugal install.

Yes, there are circumstances where a typical HDInstall is smart,
or even necessary, when ram and cpu are minimal , or at a premium.
But for everyday users, who want to keep current, try new things,
experiment, or just want to personalize it with every tweak there is,
my opinion is that over time, the hdinstall will become pain and drudgery,
as errors, both human and software/hardware, begin to accumulate..

Other thoughts...
...I have not yet had to e2fsck any of my custom CD's, or USBkeys.
due to power outages, too many reboots, or improper shutdowns..

...A persistant /home or /opt directory can be placed on a ext3 or USB..

...I can upgrade all my laptops, desktops, office machines, USBkeys,
Compact Flash cards, etc.. , to the latest version of DSL by
copying over ONE FILE from a USBkey or CD..

...I can share my personalized DSL environment with others anywhere..

...I can personalize a custom environment for others anywhere, anytime..

...I can easily change my boot options at any time..

...I can easily restart after a bad application faults, or a wacko app install..

...I can easily recover from "dependancy hell" ..

...I have no issues with 'uninstalling' apps..

For more good reading , try this blog.. or search the forums for "frugal"
< http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/talk/node/119 >

73
ke4nt

Posted by green on May 18 2005,01:29

" I only have XX ram in my box "
"Tiger Direct is selling 256 meg sticks of ram for $1.99 , go get one.."

What? Searching.....

Posted by ke4nt1 on May 18 2005,01:54

Seems they sold-out of the $1.99 PC2700 DDR ram,
but this $2.99 256 MB 3200 DDR ram will do nicely..

< http://www.tigerdirect.com/applica....=658897 >

73
ke4nt

Posted by Melancholie on May 18 2005,17:11

Before updating to DSL 1.1, I considered to give a "frugal HD install" a try! But I have to say that it is not as easy and comfortable as a "ordinary HD install" yet, and I had some problems:

- I thought about using the web install: ibiblio.org/pub... did not work (then I used alien2thisworld.net/... (cool name), this worked)
- I had to put backup/restore and! myDSL to hda3 (hda1 is Win98, hda2 would have been frugal DSL). Otherwise it did not work
- I typed in vga=784 when asked for boot options (still the script), but on the next boot this did not work, and I did see my screen flickering (only 640x480 works on my old monitor)

Some questions on frugal install:

- How do I configure a "frugal install" to boot without CD? Just like a normal HD install does with LILO!
- How do I configure a "frugal install" for automatically using my favourite boot options?
- How do I configure a "frugal install" to automatically backup/restore my screen resolution, keymap, customized files, preferences, applications (myDSL,...)?
- Will any customized data be overwritten, when changing the knoppix file for an update (customized fluxbox menu e.g.)?

A page where the pros and cons are listed would be great! My pros for "frugal HD install":

- the boot process is very fast
- the hard drive is very silent (silent mode? more gentle/sparing?)
- easy to update (knoppix file)

Right now I am using DSL with a "ordinary HD install" again ;-) I removed some stuff I do not need, added some stuff I need and customized many things (I just took my customized menu files of the last version e.g. ;-)

Posted by clivesay on May 18 2005,17:16

Nice feedback.

It's becoming apparent my next screenshot howto needs to cover a frugal install. I am by no means an expert at it but I can definitely show you how to do the things you're looking to do.

Thanks

Chris

Posted by Melancholie on May 18 2005,17:40

Yes, screenshots would be great. Also a howto on "Documentation" (http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/talk/node/62) like for a normal HD install on the page < http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/talk/node/64 > would be a good idea. There is Floppy, HD, USB, ZIP, Poorman's, but I miss Frugal, yet.

Because frugal seems to be a good way of using DSL, it would be great if someone would add a sentence like "you can copy DSL to your hard drive, or even better do an frugal install to HD" to the home page. Now only a "frugal CF install" is mentioned!

Posted by magicpio on May 22 2005,10:46

OK so, now that there was a lot of talk on the pros (and very few cons so far) let's practise a bit. I'm learning frugal HD-install from scratch right now. I'll let you participate and will explain the reasons why I have chosen a particular approach, and how I implemented that solution. I'm not experienced in Linux, just make my first (well, second) steps, so some Howtos and questions will sound dumb for the experts, but they might be exactly the sort of things which make it hard for someone coming from the Windows environment to get started.

If anyone thinks I should change the forum please tell me now and I'll move this thread.
Otherwise I'll add to this as I go forward.

Also, If I make mistakes, explain wrong, too long, too short, unclear, let me know.
My plan is, to just start collecting and once I have a certain quantity, start structuring and making sections and/or chapters.

Let's start.

A few rules
=========
1) If a command has to be typed, it is encapsulated in double quotes in these instructions.
Enter the command without the quotes on the Linux command line.

Howto make a frugal install onto a harddisk
==================================
Keywords: partition format harddisk structure setup frugal hd install

Tested with: DSL 1.1 frugal hd install

ATTENTION: This does not describe a parallel installation to existing Windows installations.
All data on your harddisk will be ERASED!!

1) Boot from the DSL live CD.

2) Prepare your harddisk for a frugal install.

Q: Should I have 3 partitions, i.e. for swap, DSL and my data/backups ?
A: Yes. One reason for me is to be able to make a backup of only
the data partition over the network using an imaging software
such as DriveImage or TrueImage.

- Open an Xterminal (the Linux command line).
On the desktop right-click and select Xshells->Root access
You need to have root access, i.e. act as administrator (called super user in Linux),
to do things, which affect the basic Linux system (simply spoken).
- To partition your harddisk enter the following command (without the quotes):
"cfdisk"
- Delete all existing partitions.
WARNING: ALL EXISTING DATA ON YOUR HARDDISK WILL BE ERASED!!
- Create 3 new partitions, one swap partition, one for DSL, one for data.
I assume, that you have only one harddisk in your system and it is
master on the primary IDE controller. In Linux this would be hda.
Then the swap partition will become hda1, the DSL partition hda2,
the data partition hda3.

Q: OK, but how big should each partition be?
A: Just 2 examples:
A small HD of 500MB: 100MB swap, 100MB DSL, rest data
A larger HD of 20GB: 500MB swap, 500MB DSL, rest data (yes, appx. 19GB)

To create a partition select New->Primary, then enter the size im MB.
Do this for all 3 partitions.
- Now we need to define the partition types.
Select the first partition hda1 and then select Type from the cfdisk menu.
Enter file system type number 82 (=Linux swap).
Select the second partition hda2 and set the type to 83 (=Linux).
Set the type for the 3rd partion to 83 as well.
- Now we need to make the DSL partition hda2 bootable.
Select the partition hda2 and then select Bootable from the cfdisk menu.
- To actually do all the above modifications to your harddisk one
final step is required.
FINAL WARNING: ALL EXISTING DATA ON YOUR HARDDISK WILL BE ERASED!!
Select Write from the cfdisk menu.
- Exit cfdisk by selecting Quit.
- Now we need to format the partitions so that DSL can properly detect them.
Enter the following commands without quotes:
"mkswap /dev/hda1"
"mkfs.ext2 /dev/hda2"
"mkfs.ext2 /dev/hda3"

Your harddisk is prepared now.

3) Important: Reboot your system now.

To do this type the following command without quotes:
"shutdown -r now"

Otherwise DSL might do funny things or throw-up error messages when continuing
the installation process, especially when you had a previous
version of Linux installed (for the experts: to me it looks as if the
mbr was not written correctly if there was no reboot, because
LILO mounted from hda1 although I had specified hda2 in the
frugal script. I had in fact installed DSL into hda 1 previously.)

4) Get DSL onto your harddisk.
- Open a root Xterminal as described in 2)
- Enter the following command:
"frugal_instal.sh"
Now you'll be asked some questions.
I've listed those questions, and the answers you should give in double quotes.
Remember to enter the answers without quotes!

#Enter target partition to hold image: "hda2"
#Install from Live cd: "l"
#List boot options, Example: toram ..... : "restore=hda3"
(Explanation: this option will automaticaly restore all files during
every bootup, which you have backed up using the DSL backup
function. You don't need to manually restore after the bootup is
completed.)
(You might want to specify these options instead - thanks
clivesay: "home=hda3 opt=hda3"
Using only these two options the above described option restore=hda3 is not required.
Many applications will install configuration data or even themselfs
into the directories home or opt. The options will ensure that these data
will not be lost after a restart of DSL, i.e are persistent. For the
curious: you don't need to add appropriate entries to filetools.lst.)
#Choose language/keyboard if other than english: Just press enter to stick with english
#Do you wish to specify a default restore partition: "y"
#Enter the partition to be used for backup/restore: "hda3"
#Do you wish to specify a different partition for myDSL: "y"
#Enter the partition to be used for myDSL applications: "hda3"
#Format the target partition: "y"

Now DSL will format the DSL partition hda2 and install itself onto it.
This might take a few minutes depending on your system speed.
Then it will reboot.

5) Remove the CD from the drive.

6) The system should now boot from your harddisk.
Congratulations!

Howto change boot options
==========================
Keywords: boot options start lilo config
Tested with: DSL 1.0.1 hd install, 1.1 frugal hd install

You can set parameters when starting up Linux.
Some of these might help if you have hardware, which
Linux does not support.

To make these parameters permanent without having to
enter them each time during startup, you need to edit
the line
append=.....
in the file
/etc/lilo.conf

Example:
append=... nodma ...

After any change to the file lilo.conf run the command
"sudo lilo -v"
and reboot your system.

Howto improve performance of DSL
===========================
Keywords: speed performance boot options toram
Tested with: DSL 1.0.1 hd-install, 1.1 frugal hd install

1) Try option compact to improve the read performance of your
DSL.
Edit file /etc/lilo.conf
Remove the comment mark # in front of line # compact.

Warning: The option compact might not work, depending on your hardware!

2) Try option toram to load DSL into RAM (which is much faster
than a harddisk)
Edit file
/etc/lilo.conf
Append "toram" (without the quotes) to the line
append=....

Warning: To use the option toram you should have no less than
of 256MB RAM, or more depending on the applications you run.

After any change to the file lilo.conf run the command
"sudo lilo -v"
and reboot your system.

Posted by clivesay on May 22 2005,12:50

Nice job!

I just did a screenshot howto for frugal. You can find it < HERE > in the Download section. Feedback is appreciated.

Chris]

Posted by SuperLou on May 22 2005,23:10

I have tried doing a frugal install following Clivesay and Magicpio's instructions a couple of times. No matter what I seem to do, DSL doesn't look in the hda partition I said it should be (hda3) with the rest of my data. In only finds it if it is in the images partition (hda1). hda2 is a swap partition. Any ideas how i can fix this without doing a complete reinstall?

Posted by cbagger01 on May 23 2005,03:20

You might be able to get it to work if you edit your lilo.conf and add the following to your append statement:

fromhd=/dev/hda3

and then rerun lilo to activate the changes.

Posted by reidar on May 23 2005,08:49

This was a really usefull thread for me! Thanks to everyone for the great advice!

I have now made a new attempt of a frugal install to my old laptop. Earlier attempts have not been all that successfull, and I believed it was due to low RAM on the laptop (56MB). Motivated by the comment Chris made about successful frugal installs on a computer with 133Mhz and 32MB RAM, I decided to give it another go. I followed the instructions presented in the pdf that Chris submitted in this thread, and I am very happy about the result! I didn't know about the home=hdax opt=hdax boot options, but I guess they do wonders on low ram systems?!

I have tried to install some dsl apps just to test my new system. Some succeeds and some fails. It seems to me that apps that are marked red (and yellow) in the repositories, i.e. apps that do not load into /opt only are problematic on my low-ram system. At least the larger apps are. Do any of you other guys, who have used frugal on systems with low RAM, experienced anything similar? Are there any workarounds? I guess the .uci apps are better for my system, but I haven't tried them yet.

Thanks again to everyone!

-r

Posted by reidar on May 25 2005,05:40

I am really impressed by the power of frugal install! Consider me a complete convert!

I have played around with my new frugal install for the past couple of days now. Old laptop, 56MB RAM and everything works like charm. I cannot get all the applications to work, simply because there isn't enough RAM-space, but the system as such is fast and beautiful. I followed the advice of creating persistant /home and /opt directories on the hard disk drive, and this has worked out perfectly. My hd is 6GB in total. I have some space for swap (about 300MB), some space for the dsl iso (600MB or so, because I considered the possibility of having several parallell versions in the future, if possible), and the rest for /home and /opt. So I have 5GB for my documents and files!!! Great :-)

I have also discovered the beauty of .uci extensions. They are truly great!!! Even a large app like openoffice.uci works. It is mounted in a second, but the startup of the applications (like Writer) takes a while of course (no longer than on hd-installs I have tried on the same machine though!), but once started, it works quite well. Impressive!!! I have also tried qcad (the .uci), which is also quite large an app, and this works perfectly. Even quite fast! I must get more of those .uci's!!! I guess the next project will be for me to learn how to make them!

Thanks to everyone! Great thing about Linux (and DSL) is that there's always lots of new stuff to learn (which I consider a really good thing!).

:-)

-r

Posted by clivesay on May 25 2005,13:11

reider -

Great to hear! It is very flexible and there will continue to be even more flexibility in the future. You tweaked my interest saying you ran OpenOffice in 56mb ram + swap! What is the processor on this old laptop?

Ke4nt recently added more uci's to the testing area so check them out.

Chris

BTW - I see some people listen to their mom.

That's not a bad thing!

Posted by reidar on May 25 2005,17:56

It is a Compac Presario 1200 with 697 or so Mhz processor. Or, so it says when DSL boots at least.

-r

Posted by mad_cow11 on June 05 2005,15:23

Sorry for my very newbish question, but what is a frugal install? Like what is the difference between frugal and ordinary harddrive install? What is better/worse about frugal? I currently have a harddrive install but if frugal is better i may switch. (only takes 5 minutes to hard drive install anyway)

Posted by green on June 05 2005,23:33

http://distro.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/distributions/damnsmall/current/pdfdocs/

read that, madcow.

Posted by mad_cow11 on June 06 2005,15:29

I have but didnt get it the first time i read it. Read it again and now it makes sense

. Should i delete my harddrive installation and do a frugal install? Which one is better? I will probally be using dsl as a server.

Posted by noclobber on June 24 2005,01:37

(I just read through an interesting thread on Frugal at < Frugal Explanation >).

With warmer weather here now, I haven't been playing with DSL very much lately, but this thread caught my eye because it asks a question that I've pondered in the past, so here goes...

Why have I always done regular hard drive installs of DSL?
Well, gee, isn't that the way every OS works? :-)

All seriousness aside, the main reasons I became a DSL remastering "wiz" instead of doing Frugal installs primarily have to do with my concerns over the depth of Frugal's customizability. How can I change things that reside deep within the bowels of the read-only compressed KNOPPIX image's directory tree and have those changes remain intact when Frugal is upgraded to a new DSL version?

For example:

A) One "annoyance" I've experienced with every version of DSL is that I always have to modify /usr/bin/pon to remove this patch of John's (line numbers included) so that running ppp to dial out to the Internet doesn't kill my ethernet connection:

19 ## small add in by john to make it play nice with auto config
20 /sbin/ifdown eth0 &>/dev/null &

I can't believe that I am the only user experiencing this problem, but I've never been able to find any mention of it in the DSL forums. Can I substitute my own line-20-commented-out version of pon in Frugal installs and have it stick?

B) The next annoyance is that DSL never finds my serial mouse on bootup (a rather common issue brought up in the forums), so I always have to create a new /dev/mouse link that points to /dev/ttyS0. Since this is done in /opt/bootlocal.sh, I'm guessing that persistent /opt solves this problem(?). Same with configuring non-Plug-'n'-Pray ethernet cards using modprobe.

C) I've also added a custom script under /opt/ppp/ip-up.d called timesync which runs rdate to sync my system clock every time I dial the Internet.

D) Custom wallpaper and fluxbox menu modifications, like redirecting the shutdown and reboot commands to point to a script which plays a sound before executing those commands, all fall under /home/dsl, so persistent home probably takes care of this(?).

E) How about adding other computers on my LAN to /etc/hosts?

F) My understanding of .uci extensions is that they are compressed images of static files which are mounted under /opt/<appname>. They are read-only and are not loaded into RAM, making them the best choice for DSL extensions.

G) When .dsl extensions are first loaded, though, either automatically on bootup or from the fluxbox menu, they are extracted onto the ramdisk, where they remain until DSL is rebooted. This is done because some files need write access. So .dsl extensions may not be a good choice if RAM is limited.

H) If an app I need doesn't exist as either a .uci or .dsl extension, can I download and install it with apt-get and have it still be functional after rebooting a Frugal setup or upgrading the KNOPPIX image?

I) What about Debian packages downloaded outside of apt-get? As an example, one computer I had came with a built-in non-VESA-compliant Tseng Labs video adapter. Neither the video drivers included with DSL nor the current version of XFree86 would work with it. After scouring the Debian website, I discovered that I needed to install XFree86 version *3* along with xserver.w32 using the dpkg utility. Granted, this was an unusual situation, but would anything like this have worked with a Frugal installation?

J) If I install the full gcc utilities, can I compile programs from source and have everything play well with Frugal?

K) What about Frugal with proprietary apps like Cedega, Crossover Office, Win4Lin, etc?

Granted, this may sound like a whole lot of questions about living with Frugal, but I'd like to get the dots between where I am now (regular HD installs) and where I'd like to be (Frugal installs) laid down close enough to each other so I follow the path without tripping over too many "gotchas" along the way. This thread looked like a good opportunity to raise these issues.

Thanks for your patience and understanding. :-)

Posted by mikshaw on June 24 2005,02:40

Most of your issues can be resolved by using myDSL packages or backup/restore to add or replace files.

If you have a file you need replaced (other than a file which is run during the init process), include it in an auto-loaded .dsl package. If you want to keep the base system untouched, you may be able to put an edited copy of a file, such as /usr/bin/pon, in a writeable directory, and add that directory to your PATH variable (or root's PATH?) *before* /usr/bin.

Applications installed by other methods can be a bit tricky. If you install a program from source into /opt, in the manner that tar.gz and uci extensions are built, you can easily add that directory to your backup. However, if you are installing with apt-get or other package management system, the installed files are typically spread out through the system and much more difficult to track down. Additionally, most are installed into the base system, which means they won't successfully restore unless you first run mkwriteable. Fortunately, there is a script called deb2dsl which will build a .dsl extension from an installed debian package (i've never used it, but i hear good things). For applications installed into the base system from non-deb packages or from source, you're on your own. As far as I know you would need to manually build your own myDSL extensions. I suspect you could add these apps to your backup, but if the files need to go into the base system you'll first need to auto-load at least one .dsl extension to run mkwriteable. Personally I avoid that whole mess by using (in my main DSL setup) only applications installed or mounted into /opt, along with a persistent /opt.

Posted by pcause on July 18 2005,02:31

I've done fri=ual installs but find that if I have to install non-DSL stuff it places files in directories other than /opt and /home. Since I have an old system with 128Mb of memory, this creates a real problem. maybe somehting like UnionFS would solce this for me, but I think it needs a 2.6 kernel.

An example of what I've needed was pureftpd.

I agree that if you don't use files other than from the DSL repository a frugal install is great.

Posted by what on July 29 2005,04:46

I'm currectly trying (struggling with) a hd install cause I've got 1 500m ext3 partition stuck in the middle of 4 other linux distros & from what I've read you need multiple partitions for a frugal.

Or did I misunderstand the frugal install?

Posted by mikshaw on July 29 2005,14:28

I think you misunderstood. For frugal you need only enough space to fit the knoppix and boot files. Ideally you'd want swap, and a place to save stuff, but it is not necessary.

Posted by what on July 30 2005,21:19

I just reread the frugal instructions.

I have all my linux's/free space on hdb & they all use grub.

The instructions insist on hda & say lilo will be installed.

Is this set in stone? Or maybe the install script can be edited?

Posted by mikshaw on July 30 2005,22:00

I imagine the script can be edited to your liking. I've never seen it, or used it. I'm running what I suppose is called "poorman's", which in my view is the same as frugal, but without the bootloader installation. I just copied the contents of the ISO onto an arbitrary partition and edited my existing bootloader.

Posted by roberts on July 31 2005,00:38

Quote

The instructions insist on hda & say lilo will be installed.

Is this set in stone? Or maybe the install script can be edited?

We offer both frugal grub and frugal lilo.

Posted by joshwaller on Aug. 13 2005,11:07

The reason I did a HD install instead of a 'frugal' install was probably because the first doc that comes up when you run DSL from CD is "getting started with DSL: how to install to HD" it doesn't mention doing a frugal install or what a frugal install is...

Josh
www.joshwaller.co.uk

Posted by Grey on Aug. 15 2005,23:14

I'm a noob, and I've tried some distros in the past, but never spent enough time to actually get things working. This time, I'm going to do it. But the reason I've had to stick with the HD install, is I can never get the frugal installs to work properly. With frugal lilo, I can boot my DSL partition, but I can't get into my windows (and I'm not sure how to edit /etc/lilo.conf and make the changes stay on rebooting). With the frugal grub install I can boot my windows partition, but not my DSL partition. It sticks on my the line "kernel /boot/linux24 root=/dev/hda2" and says it can't find the instruction (it also says something like that on installation). I don't know what do from there.

Posted by jls legalize on Aug. 18 2005,00:16

modify lilo.conf for frugal
1. Open a root shell Xhells>Root Access
2. mount /mnt/hda2
3. Now using your editor of choice... edit the following file for your boot options:
/mnt/hda2/boot/lilo.conf
4. ln -sf /mnt/hda2/boot /
5. lilo -C /mnt/hda2/boot/lilo.conf
6. reboot

Posted by ke4nt1 on Aug. 18 2005,06:08

bookmark

Posted by brianw on Oct. 02 2005,01:10

HD Install allows me to quickly test and make changes. When I trash my install I just reinstall (I know that is the windows way but...) with my data on /home. The reason I like DSL in the first place is it's ability to be fast and low resource intensive. I plan to use DSL as an app server and on some old laptops as X clients. These laptops don't have USB or CDROMs so HD is about the only alternative they have. Besides, this frees up resources for other things. Once done I hope ot have a server with DVD, TV tuner, Jukebox, etc... that can be used from so older hardware. Hard drives may be slow but they are faster than most older CDROMs and since I don't have the resources to run a mainstream distribution (now that I have tried DSL that wouldn't happen anyway, I have Ubunto installed and I have only used it lately to rescue my corruption of DSL during kdm/xdm testing, which I could have done from the live boot) it makes more sense to use the HD install for me.

Posted by JustoTech on Oct. 25 2005,07:55

I did a full install because I couldn't get things like Java to work with the CD version. As far as frugal I just didn't want to mess with having to back things up. This machine has a 20GB HD so since this is it's only OS I simply alotted 1GB to a swap file and the rest is storage. That gives me plenty of space for music and video since I use my laptop on the go all of the time.

It's a P3 850 /w 128MB RAM so it can't really handle Windows XP very well. Since I basically use it for entertainment and some network analysys, via Nessus, I saw no reason to have to mess with using the CD all of the time or having to worry about backing things up.

WHY DSL OVER RED HAT, KNOPPIX, OR OTHER LINUX DISTROS?

I wanted something that isn't time consuming to reinstall if I mess it up and with the ease of use of Knoppix.

(Yeah, I'm a LiveCD Junkie! I use Knoppix STD on an almost daily basis for Windows data recovery.)

Posted by humpty on Dec. 05 2005,16:10

I do a sort of frugal install, except I boot off a freedos partition using loadlin.
I don't have any spare partitions left so the knoppix image is put on either the
win95 partition or winxp partition, this is because wherever the knoppix image goes, you won't be able to see it after you enter DSL. Using freedos (or dos) you can tweak the boot up options to your hearts desire.

Posted by cabes on Dec. 07 2005,06:29

Frugal kind of confuses me... How do you store the mydsl programs that get installed? When I reboot, they disappear.
I specified the appropriate partition with home= and opt= and I used the same partition for mydsl. I'm missing something... Otherwise, all other settings are saved.

Posted by cabes242 on Dec. 13 2005,22:09

I figured it out... Frugal really is the way to go.

Posted by humpty on Mar. 19 2006,11:31

I only ever did one HD install when I first found out about DSL cos I thought it might give me the same thrill that BEOS did (way back then). It did not.

Posted by doobit on Mar. 23 2006,13:25

I did a Debian style hard drive install the first time, and after that it's only been Frugal. It just works.

Posted by dtf on Mar. 28 2006,14:33

I have a question. I have a frugal install and load in a myDSL application that has a config file in /etc. I attempt to save the config file by adding it to .filetool.lst. When I reboot, and my backup is restored is the config file overwritten by the expansion of the of the application (e.g. <app>.dsl) with the default config file in the myDSL package?

Posted by clivesay on Mar. 28 2006,14:35

Your backup is loaded last so the file you backed up will overwrite the original file from the app. It should work just fine.

Posted by dtf on Mar. 28 2006,15:39

clivesay - thanks for the quick response. I ask this question because I seem to have trouble preserving my passwd file. I add user dsl and provide a passwd and add /etc/passwd to .filetool.lst but I seem to have to do it again after a reboot. Maybe there is another file that I need to preserve.

Posted by DrWatt on Mar. 28 2006,17:27

I don't have a CD or USB port on my ancient DSL machine (laptop). I do my HD install from a windoze partition and floppy drive. I do have a zip100 parallel port drive that I could use, but I don't want to carry the zip around with my laptop. HD install seems like the easiest way to go for me. I always thought I was doing a frugal install, but since I am not keeping the DSL iso image on my dos partition after I install DSL to my hard drive, I guess I am not.

This thread would suggest that I might be better off keeping the iso (after I get it the way I want it) on the DOS partition and not having much more than a linux swap paritition on the HD?

Posted by linuxlizard on Mar. 30 2006,17:22

I tried frugal first. I liked the idea a lot. I have a p3 700 with 192 mb RAM and at first everything seemed toasty. But once I started adding on extensions, and rebooting I started having problems for some reason. X would lock up every few minutes. I couldn't get wesnoth to play without crashing and closing up a few minutes into things. open office from uci took a long time to boot and would hang for a short while every few keystrokes for about two minutes after booting.
So now I'm trying hard drive install. So far so good, with none of the problems I experienced with frugal. My greatest surprise- running off the hard drive feels about as fast as running off memory with toram enabled on frugal.

Posted by muskrat on April 21 2006,17:31

I have been using HD install, basicly because it was supposedly close to a real Debian install, and I love Debian.

This frugal install sounds great, I might try it soon.

I have one problem with DSL, my laptop has a hibernat mode, which when it was new the windoze OS was partioned with a 256mg partion for this function. Which basicly wrote memory to this partion then when wokeup it would retrun this back to memory.

This partion is long since gone, and no OS has funtioned properly with hidernat since.

But my problem with DSL is if it gets into habernat mode, as with other OSes I have to pull the plug and reboot. But DSL HD install reboots with numores erros and fails falling back to command line.

Pull the plug again and reboot the second time it boots fine.

My question, Why does it error out? I beleive it's because the file system wasn't unmounted correctly. But since it does error out on frist try, why does it boot fine the second try? that makes no since to me.

Posted by urwatuis on April 22 2006,13:26

I don't know if anyone touched on these points but, I did a HD installs for 2 reasons.
1) Its a laptop and only has 1 CD ROM which I want to use for mp3's and jpg's.
2)can't do USB install becuase my BIOS does not support USB boot and there is something wrong with my USB ports/controller.

Posted by kozaki on April 22 2006,17:35

Quote (clivesay @ May 22 2005,08:50)

Nice job!

I just did a screenshot howto for frugal. You can find it < HERE > in the Download section. Feedback is appreciated.

Chris]

Chris > I find a contradictory statement in your otherwise excellent (I mean it) FrugalHowto.pdf.
Page 2 "1. Primary bootable linux (type 83) for the DSL file"
Page 3 "hda8 (partition with the DSL image)"
So primary partition for DSL image does not have to be a primary one, yes or no?

Now my own feedback on Frugal

I'm a long time Linux user and part of my job here in France consist of (help to) install/configure Linux & Open Source apps.
2 months ago I gave DSL-2.3 to a teacher that has an old PII and is willing to shift from the dark side of the Force ;) Now he's been playing with long enough with it and wants a real system --in french

Thanks to you all guys in this great forum and hereby post, I can see Frugal Install's clearly the best way to go for people that _find_ the apps they need in the MyDSL repos. But if I understood it good, Frugal won't make it for a localized system & apps

I should be able to permanently localize Fluxbox to French, but I wonder :

1) How may one make a Spanish, French, Chinese or whatsoever Frugally installed DSL ?

2) How will the newbie that I build the system for be able to easily find then install localized apps he needs by himself (yeap, that's the goal here)

Posted by clivesay on April 22 2006,22:23

Quote (kozaki @ April 22 2006,12:35)

Bah, looks like I made a typo on the partition number. Thanks for seeing that. Frugal doesn't have to be on a primary partition. I think I may have been thinking as in installing DSL on a dedicated HD. You can put frugal on primary or logical. I actually put many different frugals on the same partition. Maybe it's time for me to scrub that doc a little. Many people have asked for a more comprehensive DSL users guide. I would love to do that but just haven't had the time. Correct docs are always time-consuming to produce. Robert has added so many features to DSL that I'm convinced most people don't even realize half of them.

Thanks for the feedback

Chris

Posted by SocomRod on April 23 2006,15:23

I am a completely green Linux convert. I tried DSL as a way to ressurect a perfectly good laptop that had windows corrupted by a virus.

I tried the live cd, and was surprised and impressed. I hadn't yet grasped some of the more basic concepts of Linux, however, so I wanted to install it and use it like a "normal" operating system.

I tried the frugal install, but was unable to get it to work.

The regular install was completed in in mere minutes.

I still don't understand the difference between the two, but as an internet machine, this laptop is waaaay faster than it ever was before.

Lots to learn still, including why I can't grasp the concept of a "frugal install".

Posted by urwatuis on April 23 2006,21:41

I installed a PC card network interface (wired) and although it worked fine under Win XP DSL does not recognize it. I have a 300MHz PII w160MB RAM and a 20 GB HD. Plenty of resources. anyone have any ideas? I really don't understand how to work with DSL with regard to installing apps or drivers and such. Maybe I'll buy the book.
P.S. I am writing this on my other laptop with Knoppix....but that seems to be really plug and play.

Posted by muskrat on May 04 2006,06:11

Quote

Lots to learn still, including why I can't grasp the concept of a "frugal install".

Don't feel bad, I've been using Linux now for some time and I really don't grasp the full concept of the frugal install, I understand the basics enough to know how it works, but working around those differences to make customaztions of the system is another matter.

Posted by alvez on May 07 2006,23:40

150 MHz CPU, no USB, slow CD, and 80M of RAM. I may tinker with placing frugal on a PC Card. Yeah, I'll stick to HD installs for now. In spite of the complete lack of horsepower, my DSL box is an outstanding performer.

Posted by TTK=Teobromina_Tool_Kit on May 15 2006,06:00

Quote (urwatuis @ April 23 2006,17:41)

I experienced a similar problem with DSL 2.3 in two AMD-PCs, one with PCI netcard and another with a mainboard netcard, so I came back to 2.0, which works fine with both netcards.
Please Download DSL 2.0 and try it first.

*JT.

Posted by urwatuis on May 15 2006,18:09

Quote (TTK=Teobromina_Tool_Kit @ May 15 2006,02:00)

Quote (urwatuis @ April 23 2006,17:41)

Thanks for the reply JT. I'll try DSL2.0. I should have been specific and said my network card is a M$ Broadband Networking Notebook Adapter MN-120 (10/100 ethernet) I hope DSL2.0 works with my 2 wireless cards too. I have a Linksys and a D-Link. Thanks for the help.

BTW nice website

Posted by foxtrotlima on May 15 2006,22:42

I'm running dsl on a Toshiba 3010CT, one of the early ultralight laptops - 266Mhz pentium, 96mb memory, 4gig HD - runs like a champ under dsl2.3. I've been running dsl since v1.4.

The 3010 won't boot from CD, it won't boot from USB, won't boot from floppy in different configurations, so I'm stuck doing a poorman's install. The poorman's barely runs. Attempts to do a frugal from the poorman's into another partition fail in various ways, some fixable, but not properly configured. The HD install (from poorman's) just plain works - it aint broke, so I'm not fixing it.

Posted by jimihieu on May 22 2006,14:37

Quote (namezk @ May 16 2005,15:01)

I did a hd install because it boots much faster than using the 1x cdrom drive I have (especially after I modified the knoppix-autoconfig file).

hi
can u please give me some hints on howto modify the knoppix-autoconfig file?
example i just want to detect HDD,VGA,keyboard n mouse and ram...that is pretty much...
which sections should i keep?
thanx

Posted by ShadowSystems on June 29 2006,13:08

When I try a new distro, I swap out my primary Windows drive (250Gb SATA) and drop in one of the spares (usually an 80Gb IDE) so, if something corrupts fatally, my primary drive wasn't even connected & didn't lose a thing.

I'll be dropping DSL to a spare drive, just to see how well it runs "like a normally installed OS".

I'm currently printing out the PDF's from the Doc repository, and burning DSL in the background, so as soon as those are done, I'll shut this box down, swap drives, and reboot.

If it runs half as well as everyone's claiming, my Windows drive is gonna gather dust. :cool:

Posted by doodle77 on June 30 2006,16:09

I still do hd-installs of DSL because i like to be able to edit all the folders, and overwrite the things i want to overwrite.

Posted by cbagger01 on July 02 2006,15:32

You cannot install DSL as a "Traditional Hard Drive Install" to a SATA hard drive because the latest version of DSL does not have SATA disk controller drivers.

However, you can download DSL version 2.1b and then boot with this command:

dsl sata

and then you can do a frugal install or a poorman's install to your SATA drive.

Or you could give the DSL-N a try. It is based on a newer kernel that includes SATA support.

Posted by betchern0t on July 03 2006,08:40

Having read portions of this very long thread, and read the frugal_install.sh script, unless a key problem for me is solved I will be going with the hd install. I have a family of 4 other computer users. We have five computers and the hd install allows for multiuser. I expect that each of them will be fiddling and will need to at least separate their access to the file server.

Cheers Paul

ps - great product. It took me all of 4 hours to customize leaving out the day or so getting my fuji-xerox custom GDI print drivers going. FX supplied an RPM that wouldn't run on DSL. Had to install by hand.

Posted by mikshaw on July 03 2006,13:34

Frugal allows for a multiuser system. It's just not something that is provided as an install option because it adds a level of complexity to frugal/livecd which may cause problems for added users. Basically, both the myDSL and backup/restore system (and possibly one or two other things) would need to be rewritten if you have any hopes of giving your new users the same abilities as user dsl....new users will not be able to install mydsl packages, and the backup is controlled by user dsl.

It is possible to have multiple users in DSL, however. I do this, in a way, on my box. I don't actually have any added users because i'm the only one using the machine, but i can run multiple sessions and could add users if i felt the need to do so.

Posted by betchern0t on July 04 2006,06:47

One approach that I have been thinking about is to have a backup and restore file per user. I haven't gone back to check the frugal docco to check that the boot cheat codes will allow the level of differentiation required. Got to sort out this *(%*$*& printing first:-{)=

Cheers Paul

Posted by mikshaw on July 04 2006,14:08

As I said, the backup/restore system would need to be rewritten in order to work this way. Unless you were very careful about it, it would work best if KNOPPIX was remastered to include the changes in the base system...otherwise you'd have all of your users overwriting the some of the same files, which could easily get complicated and you risk losing personl data if shutdown is not completed successfully every time.

The easiest thing I can think of right now is to modify /usr/bin/filetool.sh to concatenate all users' .filetool.lst files and create a backup from that. This isn't ideal, though, and there is still the possibility of failure. A rewrite + remaster is the safest and most effective way to accomodate multipule users in backup/restore as far as I'm concerned.

Posted by brianw on July 04 2006,23:50

Still doing regular HD installs because:

96 Megs ram in laptop is OK for HD install but not for much else. I do alot of adding software (mostly not DSLs) and some require loading at init time so HD install is better. I have a multi user system and an HD install is easy for this. I can use any method to add software and don't need to worry about file lists backups etc. I don't have a concern about hackers so I don't need the security of read only system. I have a laptop and it is my only system so I don't need to worry about "taking my desktop" with me. When I do need an OS on another system the LiveCD is plenty as it is to work with (if the system requires something special chances are I won't have it "built in" anyway). I can't run toram and I need access to my CD so I must do an HD install anyway. I can make persistent home and opt (and any other partitions I want with a regular HD install, within the confines of startup, i.e. can't make etc and a few others a seperate partition it just won't work) so a regular HD install is best for me. It only takes a few minutes to reinstall if I need (I even use KDM which is in the base system and needed during init so would be hard to work with, but only takes a few moments to reinstall if I need just do an ln -s on /var/cache/apt/archives with all my apts on CD). I have even modified the scripts so that any user can install mydsl extensions (not just the DSL user). Unless you are worried about corrupting your system (virus, hacker, self inflicted, etc...) then a regular HD install offers the most flexability with the least administration (IMHO).

Posted by kenboyles72 on Aug. 10 2006,03:17

I actually have two types of installs, usb drive and harddrive install. Yeah, I know they are pretty much the same. I have the usb pendrive install for my P4 pc. I have WinXP installed with only one hdd at the moment with two partitions. One for the os and the other for backups and installed apps. The P4 has an usb boot option, so I just plug in the pen drive and reboot into DSL. The other is a hdd install on an IBM ThinkPad 380XD with a max of only 96 megs of ram. It was given to me without a hdd, so I bought a 40 gig and threw in it. I kinda like the idea of a frugal install, but I guess I'm stuck on my way of doing a hdd install. Even with a hdd install, you can still do a backup. As a current user of Windoze, I make backups frequently, in the case that MS has a brainfart and displays BSOD. I do have seperate partitions for opt and such, so if I do have to reinstall (probably will be my fault,changing conf files or such), none of my apps are wiped out. Then again, if I change a file, I first rename the original file with added .bak extesion. If something gets screwed, just boot with live cd, rename original file, reboot and all's well. Plus with a hdd install, IMO I can easily expand it to what ever I want.

Posted by daldred on Jan. 05 2007,17:44

I've just been reading through this thread in the hope it might help me resolve my question, but if anything I'm even less certain which is the right route for me!

I posted a question about what sort of install was best for a very low-spec laptop here:

< http://damnsmalllinux.org/cgi-bin....t=16850 >

Can anyone who's been watching this topic help me understand the pros and cons?

Posted by dwk on Jan. 13 2007,12:12

I also have a low-spec system. I've just done a full intall, and I'm very pleased with DSL. Now I hear about something called frugal, which apparently I should have done instead. I don't understand frugal. What's the deal with backup/restore? It sounds as if frugal wipes the hard drive clean each time it reboots and needs auto-backup/restore as a workaround, or something like that. I don't get it, and at any rate, that doesn't sound very efficient. And what the devil is /opt, etc. directory persistence? What does that mean? If I lose everything else on reboot, then won't I also lose my data? And if I don't lose my data, then how come people say that frugal doesn't allow installing non-myDSL apps?

Like I said, I don't get it, and I can't find any docs which clear it up in my mind. I've seen plenty of docs telling me how good frugal is and how to install it, but that's not much help to me - once I've installed it, how do I cope with it? What extra stuff do I need to do? What "extra stuff" does it do on startup/shutdown/mode5? Is it faster or slower? Does it require more or less ram? Does it require more or less hd space? Can I still get by with a single partition?

All this needs in one or two paragraphs on the home page, explaining how it works in plain english, in the same way as you can find pages explaining how different RAID configs work, etc. 'Cause in the mean time, I don't get it, so what hope has a total noob got?

Posted by mikshaw on Jan. 13 2007,13:36

dwk: You seem to have misunderstood everything you've read about frugal.

The simple answer:
Frugal is the same as a live cd, except the compressed image runs from harddrive instead of a cdrom.

Extendend answer more specific to your post:

Quote

It sounds as if frugal wipes the hard drive clean each time it reboots

Not at all. Frugal doesn't touch the harddrive after installation unless you voluntarily access the drive yourself. The writable portions of the system are running in memory.

Quote

what the devil is /opt, etc. directory persistence?

By using a particular boot option you can force the DSL system to use a /home or /opt (or both) directory on a persistent partition instead of in ram. This frugal-traditional hybrid setup allows you to avoid the need to keep a backup of personal files.

Quote

once I've installed it, how do I cope with it?

It behaves the same as a live cd. If you know how to manage DSL as a live cd, you know how to manage frugal. Extra documentation would be redundant.

Posted by dwk on Jan. 13 2007,14:03

Quote (mikshaw @ Jan. 13 2007,08:36)

dwk: You seem to have misunderstood everything you've read about frugal.

I believe you

But if any contributors are looking to understand why more people aren't using frugal, and even reviewers seem oblivious to it, then my case can't be that uncommon - as for me, I've been running and installing various linux distros for about 7 years, but this frugal thing is totally novel to any operating system, so any extra documentation, redundant or not, couldn't go astray imho. (the poll agrees with me

)

And another thing, if I may be so bold as to venture my own opinion; I think "Frugal" is the wrong name for it. When I was looking at the intallation menu, I spent all of 30s trying to decide what the difference was between the different options. I took the literal, english definition of Frugal, and assumed that it meant some kind of frugal, minimalistic installation, maybe with bash and nothing else. (It's all very well to say that it was all spelled out in the docs - not everyone has time to read the docs for every single distro, and having a counter-intuitive name doesn't help)

Perhaps if it were given a new name, like "Live Install" or "HD Protected install" or something, then there'd be a lot less less confusion.
Or better still, if frugal is so good, why not just make that the default "HD install" or "new DSL-style HD install," and label the old hd install option as "traditional Debian-style HD install" or something similar suggesting its deprecated state.

just my 2c.

Posted by ^thehatsrule^ on Jan. 13 2007,16:28

I believe the frugal could refer to the 50mb limit that really advertises DSL.

Although I agree that it can be confusing to the first-time user who's trying to install, one should read the docs first anyways :P

Posted by roberts on Jan. 13 2007,16:50

Quote

Or better still, if frugal is so good, why not just make that the default "HD install" or "new DSL-style HD install," and label the old hd install option as "traditional Debian-style HD install" or something similar suggesting its deprecated state.

That's exactly what we do call it, "Traditional Debian HD Install" And that, my friend, is not the focus of DSL. It is supported, but not the focus.

You can read my design decisions for DSL < here. >

Everyone does hard drive installs, why would I want to do the same thing. When I was at the Linux World Show, I was told the following by one of the major vendors ... "every distro is just another re-hash collection of FOSS put togther, assembled, by you and everyone else, What makes you thing that you are any different".

Well, we are.. And I am still having fun doing it!

As far as documentation goes, we are not thousands, or hundreds, or even tens of developers. We have no commercial backing. But, what we do have is a great community, that actively helps support and contribute to DSL, by answering questions in the forums, creating mydsl extensions, and having very great discussions on technical areas of DSL.

Posted by Trog Dog on Jan. 14 2007,10:23

Quote (roberts @ Jan. 13 2007,11:50)

The traditional HD install may not be the focus of DSL, but it does fill an important niche, and it will be a sad day when DSL fails to support it.

It is one of the few distros that supports old and marginal hardware because it is soo damn small.

I did try frugal once, only because of the push in these boards that "it's the best way", and it didn't work - ie. the software that I'd installed didn't remain after a reboot. I'd already carried out many traditional installs so I went back to that method.

I don't mean this as a criticism, but DSL works as a traditional HD install, and I've yet to find another distro that will do the same on the hardware that I run, and gives me the flexibility that DSL does.

Posted by roberts on Jan. 14 2007,13:06

I have no plans to drop Traditional Hard Drive Installations.
Fact is, in the last few releases, I have improved support for TDHI. See the change log for specifics.

Quote

I did try frugal once, only because of the push in these boards that "it's the best way", and it didn't work - ie. the software that I'd installed didn't remain after a reboot.

True, additional software need to be "packaged" into extensions for frugal/live CD, either as a .dsl, uci, or unc and of course stored on persistent storage. In fact the newest, unc style, really helps the less capable machines run these mydsl packages when .dsl are not possible. Because of unc type extensions, several of my low end machines and now able to run alsa, cups, and Xfree86, whereas before it was not possible.

DSL does not limit your choices in how you run your system. Fact is DSL keeps pushing the envelope limited only by your creativity in how you decide to use these tools. That is what makes DSL interesting. At least that is why I am still here developing core.

Posted by dwk on Jan. 14 2007,14:11

Quote (roberts @ Jan. 13 2007,11:50)

Everyone does hard drive installs, why would I want to do the same thing. When I was at the Linux World Show, I was told the following by one of the major vendors ... "every distro is just another re-hash collection of FOSS put togther, assembled, by you and everyone else, What makes you thing that you are any different".

You have something great going here. Good. But my point was, perhaps the "install" boot menu should be edited to properly express Frugal as the "Recommended" option for installing to HD - otherwise people will just assume, as the word "frugal" suggests, that its not a full-featured install - or perhaps just an install for ultra low end systems. Maybe you would have read and memorised the docs first, but unfortunately >50% of humans don't have that much time or patience (I didn't have to read the docs to do a traditional install, why should frugal be different?). It would be a shame if a distro which, imho ought to be more popular than Ubuntu, remained unknown because the message wasn't shouted loudly enough.

Posted by mr sparks on Feb. 07 2007,14:10

I 'm a Linux newbie ,still on CD ,
No vote made as " Have cd drive back was not a vote option! "

I would like the harddrive instal option :
a) So I can have my CD rom drive back
b) If it came with a speed gain
c) If it made my data a little safer during a power loss
d) If I did not fear smashing my memory stick into little pieces

I also love not having a harddrive gathering bits of dross,
not encoaraging programmers to let their software get so fat it chews my electricity bill

I currently Love the product as is ,
Small , Fast , Self cleaning , Auto saving

and not requiring a regular format to clear out other peoples bad habits
Patches/Updates/Mistakes ( using a ramdrive does all this.)

I did love DOS , and enjoy my hardware getting the task done
without being held to ransom .
apologies for outpouring

Posted by eeek on Feb. 07 2007,16:51

First off, I appreciate all those who put so much effort into this without charging us users.

I was raised on Windows. The laptop I use is very slow (64 mb RAM, 366 mhz Celeron, 4gb hdd, etc). I basically don't have internet at home (dial-up doesn't count). The laptop itself doesn't have an internet connection, either.

Based on these limitations, I chose the regular HD install. I noticed the Frugal install option. But I didn't know what it was (the wiki doesn't exactly clear it up - earlier posts on this thread do, though) so I didn't choose it. I answered 5-6 questions, and 5 minutes later, I had DSL installed on my hard drive and running. When a quick and easy solution is found, that's the one I'll go with first. If I could figure out how to install myDSL stuff without an internet connection, I'd probably never change the installation.

Without going into it, I'd probably side with most of dwk's comments (but I think I have considerably less experience).

To summarize, I chose the HD install because it was the easiest solution for me, based on my limitations.

I have really enjoyed learning DSL and appreciate the help this forum provides.

Posted by WDef on Feb. 09 2007,16:04

Quote

I'd probably side with most of dwk's comments

CBagger1 also said much the same thing ages ago - promote frugal but don't remove the hd option.

Where is he anyway? Does anybody know?

Posted by jrev on Feb. 12 2007,09:54

Quote (dwk @ Jan. 13 2007,09:03)

Quote (mikshaw @ Jan. 13 2007,08:36)

dwk: You seem to have misunderstood everything you've read about frugal.

I believe you

I fully agree to that !

It's a pity the newcomer is not afforded a simple step by step guide to the most efficient way of using the latest versions of DSL (call it as you wish, but don't change names too often !)
:cool:

It wouldn't be that difficult to follow I assume
:cool:

And we would be able after that to make some changes according to our peculiar situation
:cool:

Posted by lucky13 on Feb. 14 2007,16:03

Quote (jrev @ Feb. 12 2007,04:54)

It's a pity the newcomer is not afforded a simple step by step guide to the most efficient way of using the latest versions of DSL (call it as you wish, but don't change names too often !)
:cool:

DWK suggested reviewers are oblivious to frugal installation. Every article/review I've read about DSL has noted what frugal installation is and what its benefits are.

The frugal install concept isn't novel at all, but my saying that assumes you have the same familiarity with the concept of installing and booting from an ISO image installed on a hard drive or thumbdrive. I immediately thought "frugal" was close enough to the Knoppix "poor man" that people would get it if they were familiar with Knoppix since it's the live CD most people are familiar with. Regardless, I certainly knew what frugal install was when I read the documentation.

I think the problem is, most people burn the ISO, immediately pop it in, see that it works, and never bother reading the documentation before they start making system changes (installation). Since they don't bother reading, they make their own presumptions like DWK did and get all trigger happy and commence to doing things they should have a better idea about before they do a thing.

Presumptions about what people do or don't understand don't matter. They should always read the available documentation from the website. There's sufficient detail about the differences between frugal and hd installs available on the site. The developers and other DSL users can't make anyone read the available documentation. That's the user's own responsibility. It's not the developers' or community's "problem" when people aren't willing to read the documentation to understand their options and what they actually mean.

Accordingly, you can call it ISO-install, image-install, poor-man's install, DSL concept install, frugal install, or anything you want but it won't make any difference unless someone actually bothers to read the documentation to understand what it means and what the pros and cons are. It's not the name that's the problem, it's the trigger happy users.

Posted by brianw on Feb. 18 2007,03:01

Call it whatever you want I still don't do frugal installs. First you must have an operating system installed to boot (be it dos, windows, linux, whatever), then you must run the os in ram. I do like the live cd when I need it but the speed of the HD install is everything. Also the ability to add other apps besides the ones dsl supporters have contributed are very important. Both installs have there strengths and weaknesess and both have specific uses. To call people who do a regular HD install out dated is like stating that the electricity grid is outdated because someone has a solar panel. It just isn't true (and coming from someone who does alot of off grid living that means alot).

The regular HD install offers speed and expandibility that a frugal install can't. The frugal install offers security and base OS protection that most people don't need or expect.

I just purchased a P4 2Ghz laptop and have winXP (for work), Ubunto (for the apps) and DSL 3.2 installed. I almost gave up on 3.2 and went back to 3.0 because 3.2 is not very HD install friendly. I persisted but still might go back because 3.2 is not what I expect from an OS. I like the ease of use of the earlier DSL versions. I will probably try Xbunto soon. I tried DSL N but could not seem to get aptget to work very well which is important to me.

DSL is a very good distro but there seems to be alot of focus on forcing people to not do regular HD installs. That only hurts DSL not help. I have been using unix since college and have used windows on an as needed basis, I support it, work with it, but I prefer Linux. I like DSL but will use it the way I am comfortable in using it not the way someone else is.

Posted by roberts on Feb. 18 2007,05:06

I take issue with the claim of "forcing users"

DSL is about choices:

Traditional Hard Install,
LiveCD
Poormans
Frugal

Isolinux
Syslinux
Lilo
Grub
Loadlin
LinLd

Boot floppy
Boot floppy fromusb
Boot floppy frompcmcia
Boot floppy fromzipdrive

Unionfs
Legacy

.tar.gz
.dsl
.uci
.unc
.deb

Pendrive Installs
CompactFlash Installs
Virtualization with Qemu or VmWare

Alot of choices, beyond the typical traditional hard installation, for a sub 50MB distribution.

And nobody is "forcing" anybody on which of these choices to deploy.

If you chose to deploy only traditonal hard installation and use debs, so be it.

On the other hand, I, as a developer of DSL, wish to spend my time on new things. Exploring new ways. Extending capbilities to running compressed type installs, and using compressed mountable self contained applications, I will do that. If I was restricted in what I wanted to offer. I would not be here.

If the community wishes to write about such. To educate those who would not be aware of these other capabilites, then that is great. These forums are about sharing knowledge.

But nobody is forcing anybody on how to run their system.

Explore and have fun in the many ways of DSL.

Posted by Wittfella on Feb. 18 2007,08:51

Hey all, I do HD installs mainly because I'm still a little confused about the memory issues with my low end laptop. Also I tend to install lots of non-mydsl apps as I explore Linux further. But Im happy

I do tend to agree with brianw, sometimes the forums are overly frugal focused, in that someone asks a question about their HD problems, and the only response they get is "your doing it wrong, use frugal".

Posted by yomeromex on Feb. 25 2007,15:28

What about the people who have a very old laptop, no USB no cdrom (Acer 350P), we need to install it to hd.
I´m newby also and would like to recover this very old laptop, so i really apreciate for any help you can bring.
thanks

Posted by setecio on April 11 2007,18:22

Quote (yomeromex @ Feb. 25 2007,15:28)

I had the same problem yomeromex and I bought a 2.5 to 3.5 IDE adapter, moved the laptop HD to another computer (disconnecting the desktop HD and plugging in the laptop HD using the adapter), and then frugal installed it from a CD to the laptop HD, and then moved the HD back to the laptop and it worked.