Why's DSL built on old Software

Forum: User Feedback
Topic: Why's DSL built on old Software
started by: Marred

Posted by Marred on Sep. 09 2005,12:53

Just wondering, I downloaded the latest DSL 1.5 & I noticed the software is very old.
I am not complaining' Infact I am very impressed with the way DSL has been built & runs on any of my PCs.
AnyWay what I was wondering is could someone explain why it has been built on old software?

Posted by clivesay on Sep. 09 2005,13:32

The short answer is, to keep it small. Most all the newer apps are built on gtk2, which is much too large to fit into 50mb. DSL is geared more to functionality than eye candy although the look gets more polished every release.

Chris

Posted by hammerhead on Sep. 13 2005,23:35

Great little distro, but I would rather see a larger download with newer apps.
The latest Firefox would be a good place to start.

Posted by mikshaw on Sep. 14 2005,01:24

Not trying to sound like an ass, but this is "damn small" linux....if you would prefer a larger download, why not download a larger distro? DistroWatch keeps track of something in the area of 400 distros...i'm sure you could find something there that would appeal to your taste.

Posted by ke4nt1 on Sep. 14 2005,02:24

Damn Small Linux also has the easy-to-use "MkMyDSL" feature.

Download any of the more recent, larger titles from the repository,
( Like firefox-gtk1.2-1.0.6 ) or ( openoffice-2.0beta )

and "make" a new iso to burn, containing your own collection of favorite apps.

It will be larger, but work in the same fashion that DSL does now..

73
ke4nt

Posted by adssse on Sep. 14 2005,04:17

I really love the concept of dsl. If I need or desire a newer app, chances are it is in the repository and is simple to install. At the same time I dont need to have the bloat of having all the new apps hanging around if I dont want/need them. To me its the best of both worlds.

Posted by delphi on Sep. 14 2005,07:56

Quote (clivesay @ Sep. 09 2005,09:32)

Most all the newer apps are built on gtk2, which is much too large to fit into 50mb.

Eh ? That's simply not correct - look at Austrumi ( < http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/2196 > ) - not only it's smaller than DSL but has apps like AbiWork, Gnumeric, Bluefish (and the list goes on) all using GTK2...

DSL is a nice and more mature micro distro but it could learn from Austrumi a few things, I believe...

Posted by caulktel on Sep. 14 2005,18:37

I have to say, that having a "real X server" sure did look good in Austrumi, but other than that is is pretty much useless. It didn't detect my sound or wirless cards and even though I changed the language to English alot of stuff was still in latavian. Still though, very pretty.

Posted by joer on Sep. 14 2005,21:49

I cannot get Austrumi to detect and work with my hardware either. So it is a small collection of gtk2 apps that must work for the developers computer. I would suppose that if DSL were to cut way down on hardware, it too could offer up such a collection. But why? It would mean dropping support for older computers. How well does gtk2 apps work in 16MB 486? Besides I like "my choice" offered by "mydsl". It just works!

Posted by bpislife on Sep. 14 2005,23:32

I don't remember where i read this but one of the reasons why DSL is based on "old software" (i am not talking about the kernel) is because old programs work better on old computers. Since DSL is a small OS and can be used to give new life to old computers.

Posted by delphi on Sep. 15 2005,01:13

Quote (joer @ Sep. 14 2005,17:49)

It just works!

Of course, what "just works" for one person doesn't (quite) work for another - it all depends on what your equipment and needs are (I use USB key and mini CD). Knoppix hardware detection technology used in DSL is much more sutable for 486 you're using. For newer computers though, not using "older programs" doesn't just mean looking 'nice' but, more importantly, much greater functionality (eg. compare FLWriter to AbiWord in Austrumi) and greater security (eg. newer version of Firefox). So clearly, from technical point of view, and like Austrumi demonstrates, a micro size (ie <50MB) doesn't have to mean crippled functionality, or 'looks' for that matter. Again, I'd love to see DSL 'upgrading' to newer and more functional (and 'nicer' looking) apps but also using more up to date (and with more support for some new hardware) kernel...

Cheers,
delphi

Posted by joer on Sep. 15 2005,02:00

And maybe someday, Austrumi will include enough drivers to support my old and newer hardware. But then it will probably be much larger than 50MB. At least with DSL, I have easy access to the latest Abiword and Firefox. Besides, most distros just leap frog each other with the collection of latest software from various sources. It is the core functionality to get connected that is important to me. But if Austrumi "just works" great for you then you are happy. I will check it again to see if any progress to be anything other than useless on my collection of puters. Like I said before, I'm sure the developers of DSL could do the same thing; but then it too would be useless for me.

Posted by delphi on Sep. 15 2005,02:54

Quote (joer @ Sep. 14 2005,22:00)

And maybe someday, Austrumi will include enough drivers to support my old and newer hardware. But then it will probably be much larger than 50MB.

Austrumi is 2.5MB smaller than DSL despite newer (and greater no of) apps - on my old computer (8 yrs), with unsupported Riva128 video card, all I needed to do is to add 500kB video module using standard Slackware package. However, I had no such problem on my ageing (4 yrs) AMD1800 - it booted into RAM in 35sec... But the 'real' target machine is going to be a Bare-Bone with the latest VIA hardware...

Quote (joer @ Sep. 14 2005,22:00)

Besides, most distros just leap frog each other with the collection of latest software from various sources.

Yes, but we're not talking about full-blown distros here but min/micro ones - something you could put on a USB key or mini CD (or, ultimately, internal CF card) and use either on something rather old or very minimal Bare-Bone with support for latest hardware and 'almost' instant into-RAM boot up.

What I'd love to see is mixture of DSL's maturity and Austrumi's approach to desktop (they use OpenBox) and apps...

Posted by joer on Sep. 15 2005,03:10

I think you just illustrated my point. You had to use a slackware package to get your video. I would rather have my base system work. I guess I could try MANY slackware packages to try to get Austrumi to work on my stuff. But then we are now comparing Austrumi + Slackware against DSL. We could debate all night, I am sure DSL could remove many things to offer up the same. But then no base functionality. Your happy with yours and I am happy with mine and I don't feel like dancing anymore.

Posted by ke4nt1 on Sep. 15 2005,03:12

Austrumi? .. Security?
It runs as ROOT !

It automounts EVERYTHING !
An accidental reboot leaves you crying when
EVERY device you have displays fsck errors.

Older hardware?
It's very ram hungry..
My lil toshiba P-100 40mb lappy has no chance of ever seeing this distro.
What about my 233 w/64MB ram? Will it boot? THEN what ??

Support?
Where are the forums?
Distrowatch lists 3 locations for forum support for austrumi,
but none had any active forums. The home forums seem to be down.
Is there a FAQ? a Wiki?

Is there a safe installer yet?
Will it wipe my XP install? ( It used to.. )
Will it install onto Pendrives? Compact Flash? USB drives? (and boot?)

It's a beautiful interface, with the openbox addition,
but many items are either missing or broken from the desktop.
And it doesn't offer a wealth of cli-type utils, due to lack of room?
( It does have a nice selection of network and server apps. )

Now I'm a BIG fan of GTK2 apps .. Got a BOATload of em'
here at DSL you can easily ADD to your install.
( if your hardware can take the pain ! )

...and if it can't , we've got some 'lighter' options for you too.
Firefox-1.0.6 included.

When I see this "unregistered" drive-by F.U.D. in DSL forums,
I immediately get suspicious.. of course, this reply of mine
is exactly what a drive-by would hope to accomplish, right?
traffic? attention? recognition? curiosity?

It is my wish that austrumi continues to progress.
It shows much potential..

But I feel that DSL has created a nice 'balance' of size,
function, useability, and speed, with some great tools for
building and adding into DSL whatever you need it to do..

73
ke4nt

Posted by mikshaw on Sep. 15 2005,03:13

I'd like to disagree with the "greater number" of apps....Austrumi, as far as i can tell, is focused mostly on X applications, where DSL has a large number of console apps and scripts. Also, as was mentioned, the myDSL system provides a way to easily extend the functionality of DSL beyond what is available in the base CD.

What I'd really like to know, though, is what is your point? This is the DSL forums...not astrumi. What is the point of coming to a forum of DSL users telling them that another distro is better? You know you're just going to start arguments....i've seen it numerous times on many forums. Don't troll, k?

Posted by delphi on Sep. 15 2005,03:37

Quote (joer @ Sep. 14 2005,23:10)

But then we are now comparing Austrumi + Slackware against DSL.

Not quite. Austrumi uses Blin boot script (which you can beef-up using Slackware packages) . DSL uses (regarded as the best) Knoppix boot script.

Quote (joer @ Sep. 14 2005,23:10)

I don't feel like dancing anymore.

Ok, cheers ;)

Posted by delphi on Sep. 15 2005,03:45

Quote (ke4nt1 @ Sep. 14 2005,23:12)

Wrong on all accounts ;) No need to get "suspicious" - as you can see from my previous post the 'unregistered' status was a cookies-issue. And yes, DSL IS (as I've pointed out already) more mature than Austrumi, so many (but not all) of your obervations are correct.

Quote (ke4nt1 @ Sep. 14 2005,23:12)

It is my wish that austrumi continues to progress.
It shows much potential..

I'm not 'attached' to any particular distro and I'm happy any that suits my needs and my only wish posting was, as already expressed, to point out that all of them can benefit (just look what effect Knoppix had) from each other...

Posted by delphi on Sep. 15 2005,03:54

Quote (mikshaw @ Sep. 14 2005,23:13)

I'd like to disagree with the "greater number" of apps...

Ok. "greater" is a relative term I guees and depends on what you need.

Quote (mikshaw @ Sep. 14 2005,23:13)

What I'd really like to know, though, is what is your point?

Ah, that's simple: please (re)read my first post - you CAN have GTK2 apps in under 50MB...

Posted by SaidinUnleashed on Sep. 15 2005,04:05

Decided to try Astrumi just for the hell of it.

And it pooped on every box I tried it on, in one way or another.

Main box: No likey the netcard
Dell 8600 lappy: No likey the pcmcia
Thinkpad: No likey the X server
Tiny Toshiba: Would not boot at all
ECS Lappy: No likey the X server
Dell 2600 Lappy: No likey the X server

And all of these computers except the 2600 work fine with stock DSL, and the 2600 just needs Xfree86.

I wasn't really impressed.

-J.P.

Posted by ke4nt1 on Sep. 15 2005,05:36

Quote

Good point. Very true ..

Quote

my first post - you CAN have GTK2 apps in under 50MB...

Again, I concur..

I think everyone begnis to think about what would be lost if some gtk2 code
was placed in DSL , which would replace some other bits in the original distro.
It seems like a give and take ..

I read just as many posts about how we should do exactly the opposite,
and add more cli-type apps, in favor of losing some of the gui and eye-candy.

Can't please them all..

73
ke4nt

Posted by WoofyDugfock on Sep. 15 2005,08:39

I don't really think Delphi was trolling etc.

We're all just very attached to DSL here, with good reason, and I think there's little doubt that it is the best-developed and supported micro distro available for the general user (IMHO).

Nonetheless, comparison & debate re the pros and cons of alternatives is a good thing.

Posted by Hammerhead on Oct. 12 2005,15:34

Woot!

We have an updated Firefox!
Plus many other great updates.
Nice work on 2.0 RC1!

Posted by brianw on Oct. 12 2005,16:02

Something I find really interesting is that people keep refering to "really old hardware" as an 800MHz 512Mram machine as really old. It may be old compared to the newer machines but many of us would love to have such a system. When I think about old systems I think about 486es and pI systems. DSL is exactly what I need for my systems (my compaq 7800 laptop is the fastest @ 266mhz). There is no way I can run other distros without giving up the GUI. For me DSL is the perfect balance. I have extended my system with mydsl and synaptic and there is not much I can't do with the system. Also, as I have stated elsewhere, my kids love it.

Posted by palloco on Oct. 12 2005,17:26

Yeah, my computer is a 400 mhz and it is not old. I can do whatever I want with it.

Posted by pradi on Oct. 22 2005,04:09

Thank you to DSL refresh my P1 system