DSL as an OS for recycled computers
Forum: Other Help Topics
Topic: DSL as an OS for recycled computers
started by: RayG
Posted by RayG on Aug. 29 2005,16:30
Hello to the forum,I am working with a church-based community outreach effort. We will be recycling donated computers to needy families in our communities. I envision a very simple system that will permit a child to do his homework (simple word processor and spreadsheet) and do simple web surfing over a dialup connection. DSL seems a close fit to our needs.
Working with a local PC recycling charity, we have found that we have access to a large number (50+) of Compaq Proliant 850R servers. These machines are new in the box, absolutely unused. The boxes were opened, a US Govt. sticker was applied to the front, and the boxes were retaped shut. Your tax dollars at work.
I would really like to find a way to make use of these machines. They have the following specs:
Pentium Pro processor (200MHz)
Dual processor motherboard, one processor installed.
32MB RAM (EDO-ECC buffered dimms, apparently hard to get and expensive)
One 4X IDE CDROM
One 3.5" HD floppy drive
Cirrus Logic video card
SCSI controller
* No USB!
* No hard disks!
I have taken one system through the configuration process. It can now boot DSL 1.4 from the CDROM drive. I have one big issue:
The video mode seems limited to 8 colors, regardless of my using lowram, frame buffer or vesa video and seicfying low low resolution. The desktop is really unusable. I did not think to check how much RAM was being used, but when I booted a PIII computer with the DSL disk at work, it was something in the neighborhood of 30 MB.
Can DSL be used successfully on such a modest amount of RAM without having swap space available?
Some additional info:
I have tried and have so far been unsuccessful in getting the system to recognise a second IDE drive. From what I have learned from googling around, older Proliant servers do not want to boot from an IDE drive, but 'some' are capable of using an IDE drive for storage. So far, indications are that the 850R is not included in the 'some' that do.
It seems to me that the best approach is to pursue more memory, but our budget for buying parts is near-zero. I have also been informed my inclination to cannibalize these machines to make a dozen dual-processor machines with 128MB of RAM would be considered unethical. Personally I think it is the most realistic option, but I will work within the constraints imposed on me. I am looking at a diskless, 32MB computer with only the floppy for storage.
Anyone out there have any ideas? I will greatly appreciate any help I can get. I would hate to see these systems end up being disassembled and trashed when there are needy people who could get use from them.
Anyone burdened with a pile of working hot-plug Compaq SCSI drives they want to get rid of?
Again any help is appreciated,
RayG
Posted by clivesay on Aug. 29 2005,20:18
Hi, Ray. I also refurbish machines for needy kids using DSL as the base. 32mb ram without swap will work but you wouldn't want to be launching things like Firefox or much else. DSL booted to X takes about right at 16mb ram. Unfortunately I don't know anything about these servers. I'm sure 8bit will not work for the X environment. That's a real shame if that's the case. I usually boot all my machines with vga=normal and then choose the 800x600 16bit color. Maybe you can find some old video cards that could work? Sounds like alot of work to be done.
I'm with you as far as disassembling them to make usable PC's. I'm not sure why you are being told that would be unethical. Staring at 50 doorstops isn't doing anyone any good. If parting some PC's to make good ones is unethical then I'm one of the most horrific people you would ever want to meet.
You could run many P1 PC's with 32mb ram +swap without issue. I give those PC's to families with very young kids as a starter pc all the time.
One thing the people you are working with will learn is that as soon as word gets out they are taking old equipment, you will not be able to find enough storage space to hold it all. I can speak from experience and also the experience of other organizations doing the same thing. I have never advertised once about taking old equipment and I have HUNDREDS of old PC's I'm dealing with. Another organization basically has an indoor landfill in a large warehouse.
Good luck and feel free to contact me if you have any other questions.
Chris
Posted by skaos on Aug. 30 2005,09:53
DSL is using the Xvesa X-server and this requires a card that complies to the vesa 2.0 specs. You can run "Xvesa -listmodes" (without quotes) to see which resolutions and colour depths your graphics card supports.
Posted by RayG on Aug. 30 2005,18:58
"32mb ram without swap will work but..."That is good news. Hopefully multitasking won't be an issue.
I am a bit foggy on the ethics of computer recycling, especially in this case. I learned Sunday, that the recycling charity we are working with is only disassembling the systems and shipping the parts off to another facility, which evaluates them for reuse. Good parts are redistributed to those who can use them while bad ones are melted down to recover the metals within. The only parts on these servers that can be used in a run-of-the-mill PC is the floppy drive The CPU needs Scket 8 motherboard, which is going to be uncommon. The CDROM is a low-profile type of drive, like a notebook uses. And apparently it's not 50 systems. It's 3 pallets with 50+ systems each.
The video circuitry is on a "Feature Board", which is plugged into a PCI slot on a daughter card. The daughter card plugs into a long slot in the center of the motherboard. The SCSI controller is also part of the "Feature Board". There may be a way to disable the onboard video through the configuration disk that comes with the system. However, I would like to work with the hardware as is if at all possible.
I will boot one system tonight and see what Xvesa -listmodes tells me.
"Sounds like alot of work to be done. "
That's exactly what I (naively) hoped to avoid with these old/new systems.
Thanks for the help.
RayG
Posted by stoneguy on Sep. 05 2005,02:27
Times like this, Google is your best friend.I bought and installed COMPAQ servers in the previous millenium, and while not familiar with that particular model, will vouch for their durability. But whoever bought those machines was a real bozo, because they had to be specified with more RAM and (usually) SCSI drives to be usable. They were pretty decent in their day running NT, OS/2, and probably Netware (which I can't speak to from personal experience).
First off, be glad they're COMPAQ. They supported their gear forever in terms of making available specs and ROM flashes, and thank goodness HP hasn't cut that off. I'd hit the HP site and see what you can find in < ROM Upgrade > and documentation.
See if the ROM flash improves your video situation. Googling reveals the vidchip as CL-GD5446 probably with 2MB RAM.
Strip memory out of 3 other machines and stuff them into your test box. You're right, you don't want to buy memory. It was probably EDO/ECC which hasn't been widely used for years now and has gotten even more expensive than it was when it was the New Thing.
Don't know if I'd bother cannabilizing a processor. Without HD, you're going to be RAM limited, not CPU. And you'd need an SMP kernel to get any use out of it, they they take up more RAM to manage things.
Chances are good you'll be able to put together a 128MB RAM system that'll do a dandy job of running DSL with the TORAM option.
I don't know why there'd be an ethical issue with recycling that way. At least I haven't heard of any according to Canadian ethics
BUT, you may wind up having to pay some small disposal fee to get rid of the carcasses depending on local dumping policies.And yeah, it is going to be a lot of work. But that's the fate of those who don't have enough money to pay somebody even poorer to do the grunt work. It's not rocket science to get those systems apart and the memory moved. Anyone who's comfortable using a screwdriver ought to be able to cope with the task ith about 10 minutes of training.
Good luck. If I were in town, I'd come by to lend a hand.
PS The reason for the daughterboards of that era was a great con job by the vendors. They touted that their systems were upgradable for the future. Of course between changing bus and CPU architectures, hard drive interfaces, and Moore's Law, it NEVER was cost effective to go that route - just buy the current model when you outgrew the old one.
Posted by RayG on Sep. 06 2005,16:05
Thanks for the response stoneguy. I have googled extensively about info. for this server and have had some luck, but these are old systems and are of little interest to most people today. I have all of the documentation that Compaq provided with the system. I managed to get DSL to boot into 800x600 with 24 bit color, using the vga=771 boot option. I don't know why this is working now, unless I overlooked something (probable). I thought I tried every possible combination before my initial post. Currently, when booting with the vga=771 option, the DSL boot process stops and asks me to choose a mode for display of text during booting. After choosing one, I then have to specify an Xserver, keyboard and mouse type. Is there some way to get around these manual configuration steps? I am comfortable with editing config files if I can be pointed in the right directions.
I mounted a 8.5GB IBM IDE hard drive on the IDE cable, along with the CDROM. The system configuration utility did not recognize it. I manually configured the BIOS for it, but I get a drive recognition error on boot. However, once DSL is running, I can mount and access the drive without a problem. Ideally, I would like to be able to boot from an IDE drive, but since I have to use the Compaq system CD to access the BIOS, I think I will have to settle for booting from CD or diskette and having the root file system on /dev/hdb.
I won 16 - 128MB sticks of memory on ebay early last week for a **very** good price. Unfortunately the seller had not responded to my 2 requests for confirmation of total price.
Hopefully, he is just on vacation and not trying to back out of the sale. Any help is appreciated. Thanks again for all the help so far. That memory would let me get 16 machines out the door as soon as I have the boot process straightened out. Getting 16 systems out the door in short order would be a great way of building some enthusiasm in the other memers of our group.
I have introduced the idea of using Linux to the other participants in this project by giving them with a Ubuntu live CD to play with. There will be some resistance to the idea, one guy appeared to recoil in horror about he idea,
but I don't see how we can really avoid it if we want to provide a large number of machines to the community. RayG
Posted by clivesay on Sep. 06 2005,20:28
No way around Linux unless you want to spend $5 per machine for a M$ refurbishers license of Win98. You can tell them I give Linux machines to kids all the time with no fuss. I run Linux at home and now my 15yr old does all his homework in Mepis even though XP Pro is on the same machine. Ubuntu would be very familiar to most people.Good luck.
Chris