TESTERS NEEDED w/ HIGH SPEED ACCESS
Forum: myDSL Extensions (deprecated)
Topic: TESTERS NEEDED w/ HIGH SPEED ACCESS
started by: ke4nt1
Posted by ke4nt1 on Oct. 06 2004,17:18
Here's the scoop .. 
I am working on making an extension for DSL that will allow...
1. Certain dependent packages to be centrally located ..
2. Easily upgradable to latest versions without rebuilding dozens of already-made extensions every time ..
3. Smaller extensions which are not burdened with carrying their own versions of dependencies
4. Reduced confusion about dependency versions..
5. Easier to add the "latest & greatest" packages to DSL
6. Less dependence on "wrappers" and so forth..
This is NOT a project that will be memory friendly for now..
This will open up the entire filesystem as writable, as this will be writing to usr/* etc/* ..
You will need a fair amount of RAM , a CDROM bootable system, and a HD partition to test from.
You will surely need High Speed Internet to make this work,
unless daily 30-40MB downloads or larger is your idea of fun on a dialup..
The idea here, which seems to work OK so far ,
is to create one large package which will contain the latest GTK, Pango, Defoma, Perl, etc..
This will allow the use of many apps, fonts, and tools to work together which require these packages..
All of them will pull from the same subset of dependent packages..
No more "gimp 2.0 had pango 1.4 and gtk 2.4, but abiword has
pango 1.2 and gtk 2.2, while firefox had pango 1.1 and gtk 2.0 ..
Obviously, this will require "factoring out" these files and dependencies from extension builds,
leaving only the app and unique attached files ..
So , for folks wanting to stick with the generic perl 5.8 , gtk 1.2, etc..
the existing extensions will still be available ..
This may be your only option for limited ram systems, slow/small systems, etc.. which is OK,
as I still upload apps which use the gtk1.2, existing perl and font management, etc..
Many of them are much faster and slimmer in operation than the "latest" versions...
But so many recent apps and programs want to see updated versions of packages like gtk, perl, pango, defoma, etc..
I think that the apps and programs will ALL work from a common set of the packages factored out and combined into a .dsl ..
same as if they were all installed together in a stock debian system..
This ".dsl" will need to be loaded prior to using any of these
specially-built apps, similar to needing gnu-utils.dsl or dsl-dpkg.dsl to do certain things in DSL.
So far, I have thrown together a minimal set of packages to test with.
It will eventually contain most all of pango, gtk, perl, etc..
In the interest of keeping it DamnSmall as possible, I am only adding what the programs and apps scream about for now..
My initial tests have been successful, and I want to test this with as many systems as possible before a true release to DSL ..
I plan to continue progress on this package for quite some time
before it is released into the DSL repository for public use ..
If you choose to grab these files, you do so without support or
guidance from DSL staff, since this is my personal project,
and am fortunate enough to have the privledge of using DSL
resources to share this with you..
THIS WILL BREAK YOUR HDINSTALLED DSL SYSTEM..
DO NOT participate in testing this if your beloved hdinstall is your platform for evaluation..
Make a partition for using DSL like a poorman's install
Simply copy the contents of your DSL CDROM to it, and use the
CD for booting..
( e.g. " dsl dma toram fromhd=hda3 " )
This way hosed builds only require a reboot to return to normal..
and removing the CD puts your system back in to your HDinstall or frugal without issues..
YOU WILL HOSE YOUR SYSTEM.. I WILL MAKE SURE OF IT..
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.. I WILL ATTEMPT TO BREAK IT..
That's the whole idea behind this testing, to find the breaks ..
e.g. everything up-to-date is A-OK..But I upload another package for testing..,
I know it breaks, but I want to know HOW it breaks on different systems.. get the idea.. ?!
I operate with dsl-dpkg.dsl and gnu-utils.dsl installed at boottime. Please test with the same , and no more..
This should be a pristine DSL Live CD/Poorman's environment ,
with only these two extensions loaded for now..
If you want to give this a go, using a shell, wget the following 4 files..
ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/damnsmall/pkg_test/gimp20_factored_out.dsl
ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/damnsmall/pkg_test/firefox093_factored_out.dsl
ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/damnsmall/pkg_test/abiword_factored_out.dsl
ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/damnsmall/pkg_test/update_gtk_pango_defoma.dsl
FIRST..
1. After downloading, install the update_gtk_pango_defoma.dsl ..
2. Then run as root the /usr/bin/update_gtk_pango_defoma executable file.
This is the package that I will be focusing my attention to,
and adjusting to include the dependancies that different apps will require..
For now it is a dumping ground for files and deps ..
SECOND..
Try installing either /all combinations of these three apps here that require deps. The idea is to catch any files or situations
where one may break another by , for example, overwriting a lib with an older version, etc...
THIRD..
Feedback to this thread as to errors, omissions, and app performance...
Does it work?
DO they ALL work independantly?
DO they all work together?
Input is welcomed..
If all goes well, adding additional apps to the mix, as well as additional packages to the "dump" would be next..
It is my hope that most all of these reduced "apps" can be
converted into .tar.gz's, and the larger ones made into .uci's
Then only the ONE BIG DUMP.dsl is resident in the extended mkwritable filespace.
This means that only the big guns will benefit here,
as a 233 with 32MB ram will never fly properly with so much
writable filespace enabled, and such a large package.dsl file installed..
Of course, once the buggies are worked out, it could be
installed to a HDInstall , but then there is no going back..
I have a mozilla thunderbird and other GTK apps
already factored out and standing by to be added in ..
Awaiting feedback ..
73
ke4nt
Posted by ke4nt1 on Oct. 06 2004,21:48
So far, I find that I have to rerun the update_gtk_pango_defoma.dsl
after every dsl app is installed.
I've probably got something doubled..
And I need to add some fonts to abiword...
or point to where they are..
Also, I may edit the update_gtk_pango_defoma executable
to be able to run more than once..
ke4nt
Posted by cbagger01 on Oct. 06 2004,22:43
ke4nt1,I applaud your efforts to improve the dependency situation regarding DSL extensions and I have no doubt that your approach will work, but let me get a little bit off-topic for a moment:
<Stands up on Soapbox>
As designed, the myDSL extension system is not a true package management system (and as Roberts will point out, it was never intended to be), so it will always have these problems and other similar problems that the early attempts at Linux package management suffered from.
In my opinion, the best solution for this problem is (when it is appropriate to resolve dependency issues) to use the state-of-the art already existing package management system that is associated with DSL:
apt-get / dpkg
The advantages of using the apt-get / dpkg system compared to the old *.rpm format is obvious and I believe that these same advantages apply to a liveCD extension system as well.
Unfortunately, using apt-get / dpkg requires one dependency: the dpkg extension.
Also, a straight *.deb restoration does not result in the cool menus and icons that Roberts has built into the myDSL extension system.
So maybe the best solution is to use both... You would use the existing *.dsl system to include your menu items, desktop icons and other stuff and it would also include inside the tarball all of your *.deb files and a short wrapper that is run from the menu item and will install all of your *.deb files.
For a somewhat appropriate example, take a look at the alsadebs extension. It includes apt-get / dpkg restoration and the cool myDSL integration.
So basically the way things would work is:
Dependencies are factored out into *.deb + wrapper encased in a *.dsl file.
Library dependency extensions would have no Fluxbox menu item so could be a straight dpkg -i filename.deb
Executable programs would have the *.deb + wrapper + menu item or desktop icon + any needed userfiles
<Steps off of the Soapbox>
Let me know what you think about it. I could be completely off-base here but I figure that it's at least worth putting it out there for discussion.
Posted by ke4nt1 on Oct. 06 2004,23:56
I like your ideas... The thought of using the .debs to install via myDSL is enticing.
I had visions of placing extensions inside extensions, in which
one would be the .debs + install wrapper, as a subset,
then placed inside another extension, with another wrapper +
the icons, menus, addons, plugins, etc..
Similar to what you describe..
But in fact, when installing the *.deb files via dpkg -i --force-all,
I run into the same issues I'm trying to avoid with the .dsl extensions..
And using a wrapper to install debs defeats the package management that apt-get provides..
Most of these .dsl files were either built/rebuilt by me or contributed by DSL users..
Most ALL of us have used your fabulous deb2dsl script to build the .dsl files, then rebuilt from there to remove docs, mans,
unneccessary bulk, and/or repackage them into .tar.gz's or .uci's to keep memory usage down to the minimum needed for
lowram/slower cpu's/boxes ..
The issues are that the .debs are full of stuff used in
kde, kdemenu, gnome, xf86, etc.. that are not needed in DSL ..
Also, If I go by the .debs, like the abiword, gimp, firefox, and many others
that were built using the deb2dsl, I get the same scenario..
Firefox , from debs, uses gtk2.X and pango1.x and perl 5.x
Gimp2.0 , from debs, uses gtk 2.2.x and pango 1.4.x and perl 5.8 x
Abiword, from debs, uses gtk2.0.x, pango 1.1.x, etc...
So I get 3 gtk's , 3 pangos, 3 perl's, etc..
The mydsl system of using wrappers allows you to change the
LD_LIBRARY_PATHS and export different paths to substitute
the latest versions of these packages for the usual package.
This is history if I use .debs instead of .dsl files ( tarballs )
If I were to use the apt-get scenario, which would take care of the multiple installed packages,
then each time I bootup a LiveCD of DSL, I would have to answer to dpkg and apt-get
about defoma and pango EVERY TIME i wanted to use the "gimp2.0" for example..
Same as installing it apt-get to a HDinstalled system for the first time..
So, when "firefox" 1.0 rc-whatever comes out, which uses a
later version of a package than the "gimp2.0" ,...
Then the next time I use "gimp2.0" ,it's forced install makes it overwrite
the libs and packages to an older version, or simply adds its older version to the filesystem.
Now I'm back at the same issues I had before..
So my thoughts were to "factor out" the Latest and Greatest
Perl, GTK, Pango, Defoma, and the newest libs for most packages ( libXft.so and libXcursor.so , for example )
Then I'd have only ONE package to update , which could work with ALL the extensions that require part or all of them.
If I'm barking up the wrong tree here, let me know..
We're on the same page here, I believe...
Please feel free to point out errors in my thinking, methods, or
debate the value of this outcome..
73
ke4nt
Posted by ke4nt1 on Oct. 07 2004,05:40
Here are the latest builds, which now includes perl 5.8.3Use wget to obtain and test these 4 new files ...
ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/damnsmall/pkg_test/gimp20_factored2.dsl
ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/damnsmall/pkg_test/firefox093_factored2.dsl
ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/damnsmall/pkg_test/abiword_factored2.dsl
ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/damnsmall/pkg_test/update_gtk_pango_defoma_perl2.dsl
I will dump a few more in here tomorrow to add to the melee !
Remember, install the update_gtk_*.dsl first ..
Then run/exec the update_gtk_* in /usr/bin to build the necessary files for defoma/pango ..
Then explore the other three titles ..
So far, I have been able to install any/all and run them with success ..
73
ke4nt
Posted by ke4nt1 on Oct. 07 2004,13:17
Last night, while rebuilding a fresh copy of Thunderbird, I found it now uses Perl 5.8.4 , to replace the 5.8.3 ..
Easy to update, so expect a new "update_gtk_pango_defoma_perl3.dsl"
package later today which will include the new perl ...
At the moment, the packages are at these versions ..
GTK 2.4.0
Pango 1.4.0
Perl 5.8.3 ( soon to be 5.8.4 )
And the latest libs I can find so far to date..
73
ke4nt
Posted by henk1955 on Oct. 07 2004,15:09
i think cbagger01 is on the right track.yesterday evening i did a short test with the only files i could download (update_gtk_pango_defoma.dsl, abiword_factored_out.dsl) and it dit not start abiword.
so on a clean machine i did an apt-get upload for debian testing.
then i did apt-get -d for gimp, firefox, abiword. (assuming ALL packages will be taken of the testing, or matching precompiled binaries)
i compared the list of files to be installed, the most important ones where of the same version. (
| Quote |
| Inst perl-base [5.8.0-18] (5.8.4-2.3 Debian:testing) Inst libgdbm3 (1.8.3-2 Debian:testing) Inst zlib1g [1:1.1.4-14] (1:1.2.1.1-7 Debian:testing) Inst libdb4.2 (4.2.52-17 Debian:testing) Inst perl-modules (5.8.4-2.3 Debian:testing) [] Inst perl (5.8.4-2.3 Debian:testing) Inst defoma (0.11.8-0.1 Debian:testing) Inst libglib2.0-0 (2.4.6-3 Debian:testing) Inst libatk1.0-0 (1.6.1-3 Debian:testing) Inst libgtk2.0-common (2.4.10-1 Debian:testing) [] Inst libxrender1 (0.8.3-7 Debian:testing) [] Inst libpango1.0-common (1.4.1-2 Debian:testing) [] Inst libpango1.0-0 (1.4.1-2 Debian:testing) [] Inst libxcursor1 (1.1.3-1 Debian:testing) [] Inst libgtk2.0-bin (2.4.10-1 Debian:testing) [] Inst libtiff4 (3.6.1-1.1 Debian:testing) [] Inst libgtk2.0-0 (2.4.10-1 Debian:testing) Inst gsfonts (8.14+v8.11-0.1 Debian:testing) |
so is it posible to make a *.dsl that contains these base libraries, and have then installed, just like alsadebs?
but at the end of the install_alsadebs there could be a:
rm * to delete the *.deb files
and some rm /usr/share/doc/*
to save space on /ramdisk/opt
or even beter yet have the *.deb files in a *.uci and the user.tar.gz contain the install_script that goes in /etc/rc5.d
i have tried the above files but had some trouble with recursive dependecies on perl and perl-modules. if i get a solution to this, i think this is the way i will be expanding myDSL.
Posted by ke4nt1 on Oct. 07 2004,16:42
I appreciate your feedback.. keep it coming..I was looking forward to more feedback from cbagger01 and others as well..
That was the purpose for starting this thread..
I can see this evolving into something more than simply debs vs dsls
In the meantime, since my path/direction currently is to complete this extension,
( and that is all that it is, another extension )
Please download the latest versions, test, and feedback your comments..
73
ke4nt
Posted by cbagger01 on Oct. 07 2004,17:13
All of these comments are helpful in getting to the promised land.If you use the deb inside a dsl with wrapper to dpkg -i filename.deb, you get the following benefits:
1) You can still get myDSL menu customization functionality.
2) Even though you are using "dpkg -i" instead of "apt-get install", you are still using the Debian package management system to handle version control and dependencies. "dpkg -i" is just a different method of getting the packaged installed and does not bypass the management functions unless you deliberately order the system to bypass the management, which is also true for apt-get.
3) You can still "factor out" the dependencies into separate extensions that can be installed for use by more than one application. This is true for most applications, ones that have a "newer than version x.xx" dependency requirement instead of a "specific depdendency version number x.xx required".
4) You can still follow the DSL philosophy of removing unneeded files and documentation. It is just a little bit harder to do it using this method. It is possible to rebuild a debian package with certain files removed to decrease size. I believe that the command is something like dpkg -repack packagename or something like that. A documentation check is needed in order to re-learn the exact command syntax.
There is not an easy solution for the /opt/extensionname LD_LIBRARY_PATH wrapper situation because these types of extensions are going outside of the normal Debian installation rulebook. However, it is technically possible to build a new *.deb pacakge that contains the custom install files and also lists the correct dependencies. The Knoppix team has already done this for some of their stuff on the knoppix livecd. For example, if you look inside the alsadebs directory you will see a knoppix customized alsa deb package that is tweaked from the standard alsa installation. Why? Because the knoppix folks needed to make some changes in order for alsa to work properly with both their standard 2.4.26 kernel and also with their optional 2.6.x testing kernels. However, this build-from-the-ground-up exercise is not for the novice user and I wouldn't know where to begin myself.
As for the debs vs. dsls debate,
I would prefer to describe it as debs & dsls, or maybe debs IN dsls
Posted by ke4nt1 on Oct. 07 2004,23:59
Update...I have added the airsnort-0.2.6.dsl app to the list.
I have updated abiword to abiword-new-2.0.10.dsl
I have changed the name of the main dependency extension to
myDEPS-new.dsl, added Perl-5.8.4 to it, and updated several more libs.
Here is the new list to test..
These files remain from yesterday, but renamed, use wget to download them.
ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/damnsmall/pkg_test/gimp-factored-2.0.4.dsl
ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/damnsmall/pkg_test/firefox-factored-0.9.3.dsl
ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/damnsmall/pkg_test/abiword-factored-2.0.1.dsl
Use wget to obtain and test these 3 new files ...
ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/damnsmall/pkg_test/abiword-factored-2.0.10.dsl
ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/damnsmall/pkg_test/airsnort-factored-0.2.6.dsl
ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/damnsmall/pkg_test/myDEPS-new.dsl
"myDEPS-new.dsl" SUPERSEDES the "update_gtk_pango_defoma_perl2.dsl" file ..
Again, install the myDEPS-new.dsl FIRST ..
Run the " /usr/bin/update_gtk_pango_defoma " SECOND ..
Then have at it on any of the rest of em' ...
Still working out the details on mozilla-thunderbird..
I'd like to add the firefox 1.0PR as well to this list..
Any feedback on performance ?, or am I on my own here ?
73
ke4nt
Posted by ke4nt1 on Oct. 08 2004,01:36
I have added the following apps..inkscape-factored-0.39.dsl
mozilla-thunderbird-factored-0.8.3.dsl
AFTER INSTALLING t-bird, but before RUNNING IT ...
you'll need to run the 'update_gtk_pango_defoma' executable in /usr/bin
AND
as ROOT, run the '/usr/sbin/update-mozila-thunderbird-chrome' executable.
Then T-Bird should run fine, import and setup..
Once this sees some further use,
I will place all of this in a small wrapper in the .dsl file ..
73
ke4nt
Posted by ke4nt1 on Oct. 10 2004,01:02
Here are the gtk2 apps I have assembled into factored extensions so far..
Firefox-1.0PR
Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8.3
Gaim 1.0.0 (nice! )
Airsnort 0.2.6 ( latest version )
Inkscape 0.39 ( vector drawing app )
Tux Commander 0.5.39-1
Gimp 2.0.4
Abiword 2.0.10
I have moved these apps to my FTP server for now.
IP Address = 216.119.91.246
userid = dsluser
passwd = dslpass
Use your axyFTP to download these apps.
Much better than using a browser..
I have added the wrappers to the GTK2.dsl , T-Bird, and Gimp .
So no more command line directions .. simply click n run ..
DIRECTIONS:
Download the GTK2.dsl file first..
Use your emelfm "mydsl" button to load the GTK2.dsl
Then use the menu option to "Update to GTK2"
Once you've done this, your free to use any of these apps
just as you would any other extensions..
Enjoy..
I have several more in progress..
73
ke4nt
Posted by SaidinUnleashed on Oct. 13 2004,20:30
ke4nt1-I have tried the firefox 1.0, gaim, and gimp, and so far, no problems.
It would be very cool if this is the beginning of the .dsl system evolving into a real package management system.
because, lets face it, a lot of stuff that you could apt-get, breaks DSL. Like GTK2. Why does it want to uninstall everything to run GTK2? who cares. just use the gtk2.dsl.
definately a step in the right direction.
-J.P.
SaidinUnleashed
Posted by wirebook on Jan. 25 2005,06:48
Ok, maybe I'm not up to the challenge of being the guinea pig and testing all of your different ISOs, seeing as I've only switched to Windows. But I'm a quick learner, and think that I want to help you guys test all of the DSL releases. But I also want to know if you guys can make a custom-tailored ISO/disk which would have everything I want on my system, which includes:-Intel Pro Wireless 2011 PCMCIA card drivers (this is the MOST important thing to me, and there are too many steps for my windows brain to comprehend)
<--I would like the airsnort and intel card to be able to work together, first find a network and it's wep code, and then enter the wep code in myself and acces the network -->
-Airsnort (if it works with the card above, if not, then airhog, or whatever the other one was, if it works)
-Firefox 1.0
-"gaim" (from your screenshot) or some other AIM service that works with my card
-Thunderbird
-Pretty-good mp3 player (playlists would be nice, but I can settle for another without it, but has easy, intuitive song-searches)
-Video Player (not important at all)
-C++ compiler (I'd rate this at pretty darned important, as I'm learning C++ programming as a hobby)
-Torc (the racing car game)(optional)
-A decent word processor (which will be able to print through a network)
-a photo view( and/or editor)
-WINE (I think this would be nice, 'cause then I could take counter-strike out for a spin)
-and any other *useful* stuff out there
I have a cable modem connection, with a wireless router, which my dad has set the WEP code on one computer (windows only), but I forgot what he told me to put in on my Linux machine, and at the moment, he's in Japan.
I have plenty of CD-Rs should I happen to need to burn multiple copies of DSL. I don't truly care what happens to my laptop that I am testing this on, as long as I am still able to use if by reinstalling everything. I have nothing of any value or irreplaceable, so I say, what the heck. Oh yeah, and any technical console commands, I really don't know, so you'll have to write them out for me.
I hope that you'll take my offer up, 'cause I REALLY don't want to go to buggy 'ol slobutt windows just because it runs the minimal stuff I need.
Thanks,
Chris
Posted by ke4nt1 on Jan. 25 2005,07:58
Chris:While DSL doesn't take "requests" for custom distro building,
you have the tools in DSL you need to "roll your own"
Search thru the forums for the keywords mkmydsl and optional
mkmydsl is a tool for easily building and burning your own custom iso in DSL.
The "/optional" directory is where you would like
for your extensions to be located in your new fresh cd..
Many of the apps you have chosen can be downloaded from the repository.
The airsnort and other sniffer tools require the orinoco chipsets to work.
They do not operate thru ndiswrapper at this time.
Search google for ndiswrapper, and find some drivers recommended for
use with your model of wireless card there..
Then use the ndiswrapper tool in your DSLPanel to make it work.
It's a simple gui form.
I was surprised to see a post in this thread..
These apps have all been well tested,
and are found in the gtk2 section of the repository..
Glad you stopped by..
73
ke4nt
Posted by wirebook on Jan. 25 2005,21:36
Ok, I guess I got ahead of myself (up FAR too late). What I really mean is.... ke4nt1, you have the AWESOMEST (don't know if that's a real word) desktop I've ever seen. I know I'm supposed to use the search function, but I did, and came back here. I'm wonderijng how I'm supposed to uninstall aps, 'cause I deleted the files for wolfenstien, but it is still in the myDSL tab once clicked on the desktop. Plus, I don't know how to make icons (I'll edit out all of the junk I'm putting in here if I don't find it), or have the wallpaper stay the same for EVERY reboot (keeps resetting itself). I'm almost tempted to just re-install my entire OS, but that might be stupid, but then again, I think I'll do it for kicks.Anywhoo, I still don't know how to open gcc, and I need it for Friday. I did do a search for that, 'couldn't find it.
So, I guess in my mind, the easy way out of my troubles would be to have someone else who already has everything I need, send me the os files. But I know that the wholesome way to do this would be to figure it out myself.
Oh yeah, if there are any new programs DSL, I'd be glad to test them. But first I gotta get out of my hole. Well, I guess I'm not in a bad hole, seeing as I'm posting this from out of linux :-)