for floppyless people
Forum: DSL Ideas and Suggestions
Topic: for floppyless people
started by: curaga
Posted by curaga on Mar. 10 2007,12:54
If one doesn't have a floppy drive, how aboutmaking a 2mb partition and dd'ing the bootfloppy there?
I think it would work, but haven't tried it. If it does,
it could be added to the wiki as 'floppyless poormans' or something..
It then could be chainloaded or if it's the first partition,
booted straight from bios..
Posted by ^thehatsrule^ on Mar. 10 2007,22:36
I don't see how that would be better than just installing one of the bootloaders from the regular bunch onto a drive.
Posted by curaga on Mar. 11 2007,12:29
If one wants to boot usb without a slow floppy it would be a very good use ;)
Posted by mikshaw on Mar. 11 2007,13:26
What ^thehatsrule^ is saying is that you are not getting any benefit over installing a regular bootloader by installing a bootloader built for a floppy.The comment was not saying your idea couldn't be useful, but that it is addressing an issue that has already been effectively resolved.
Posted by curaga on Mar. 11 2007,14:06
Ok. But say, how can I boot an usb stick using grub or lilo (the usual bootloaders) if the mobo doesn't support usb booting?
Posted by humpty on Mar. 11 2007,15:04
if you don't have a floppydrive and you can't boot from usb. then i assume your talking about booting from HD. why can't you just boot from HD?
For some reason, you want to boot from HD but read the boot files from a USB drive?
or perhaps you want to trick the bios into thinking the usb is really a floppy?
Posted by curaga on Mar. 11 2007,15:28
One possible scenario:If someone has a nearly full HD (like XP and mp3's..) and wants to boot DSL from usb for saving settings and so, their BIOS cannot boot from usb and they either have no floppy drive or think it is too slow..
And 'cause normal boot loaders can't boot usb, then this would be kinda elegant solution, wouldn't it?
| Quote |
| For some reason, you want to boot from HD but read the boot files from a USB drive? |
Exactly. Well, not me, but it could be advertised in the wiki or so..
Posted by ^thehatsrule^ on Mar. 11 2007,17:18
I think you're getting a bit mixed up curaga.When you are using a "fromusb" bootfloppy, you are booting from the floppy itself, and NOT the usb.
It passes on the "fromusb" cheatcode to have DSL look for the main base image on a usb.
This is the same as using any bootloader and using the same cheatcode.
Posted by humpty on Mar. 11 2007,21:23
okay, since you've confirmed a HD boot, there are two more stages. To load the boot files and To load the knoppix image. I'm not sure if you can specify the location of the boot files from syslinux, but they can certainly be specfied with a dos/loadlin boot.
The location of the knoppix image can also specified either on the bootline, or syslinux.cfg or as part of the dos/loadlin boot.
Yes, this will speed up the boot. but are you sure you can't spare another 52mb on the hard disk? you can still restore/save settings on the usb drive with 'fromhd' cheatcode.
Posted by curaga on Mar. 12 2007,06:25
It's just an alternate solution which could be listed on the wiki...
Posted by lucky13 on Mar. 12 2007,15:42
| Quote (curaga @ Mar. 12 2007,01:25) |
| It's just an alternate solution which could be listed on the wiki... |
Solution for what? The usual bootloaders are sufficient for the conditions you've described. Seems like reinventing the wheel with a square peg.
Posted by the Missing M on Mar. 22 2007,02:34
| Quote (lucky13 @ Mar. 12 2007,03:42) | ||
Solution for what? The usual bootloaders are sufficient for the conditions you've described. Seems like reinventing the wheel with a square peg. |
A harsh assessment, < but still >... [Did not want to reference the IMG directly, because that's stealing, even if it's just a wee bit o' bandwidth...]
I do see the point of curanga's original post though, and it is a good one. M$ programs and systems do not play nicely with others, as you've probably noticed.
So... If Windows or the hardware won't let you boot an alternative OS [and why would M$ want to let you do that?] then booting DSL from within a Windows session, once, does seem like a good alternative. But remember you'd only have to do that *once*, because while you've got the Brave Little Penguin up and running, you can also use it to mess with the MBR and install Grub. Yes right there, right under the Giant's nose. Anyway, I think that's what curaga had in mind when he/she posted about alt boot methods. Just the floppy part was a bit off.
You'd probably have to disable any antivirus software first though [no, *first* disconnect any/all network connections, so the Giant won't catch cold while its guard's down]. Norton AV hassled me once about leaving a floppy in the drive during shutdown, because having an infected floppy in there at *startup* is a great way to catch a boot-sector bug. So Norton probably keeps an eye out for weird stuff, like for example, some upstart app screwing around with the MBR... Gotta be up to something.
Sorry if I'm repeating what others have already said. Old news to you, maybe, but it's *all* new to me. :-)
I wonder if it's possible to reboot the machine, not just DSL, from within DSL, within Windows? Okay, so you might get hassled later about how `Windows Was Not Shut Down Properly' [that is, assuming you ever let Windows start up again], but hey, it seems only fair if the thing wouldn't let *you* start up properly.
Umm... Okay, back to the MBR.
I've been thinking, and reading a lot about boot-loaders lately, because really, it's the first thing most newbies ever see outside a Windows environment. And if the initial learning curve's too steep, it might be all they ever see. Seriously, if things don't work, won't boot, the system looks fried, and your girlfriend's going to FREAK if she can't check her email when she gets home, and she'll be home any minute, and... Well, you know. :-\
BTW, does Grub have a lot of online help built into it? You have to admit, sitting there in front of some foreign command promt whose ways are unkown to you, with the possibility of just one typo screwing things up so *neither* system will boot properly, is a bit scary. [Yes yes, I know you can go back and fix/redo it later, but in the meantime... EEEK, no system! Know what I mean?]
Hmm. Guess I should save the Grub questions for a separate post. This one's wandering all over the place, and getting pretty long. And on that note...
In a World Without Walls, who needs Windows and Gates?
Patrick.
Posted by lucky13 on Mar. 22 2007,04:16
| Quote (the Missing M @ Mar. 21 2007,21:34) | ||
A harsh assessment, but still... |
It wasn't harsh.
| Quote |
| I do see the point of curanga's original post though, and it is a good one. M$ programs and systems do not play nicely with others, as you've probably noticed. |
My mileage varies from yours, and I disagree with you that curaga's idea is helpful with respect to interoperability or dual booting. The latter is something which is better handled in better ways. Maybe it's my background working with NT, but it and XP and Vista are all relatively friendly when it comes to sharing space on a hard drive with another OS.
< http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/h/2337 >
| Quote |
| So... If Windows or the hardware won't let you boot an alternative OS (and why would M$ want to let you do that?) |
Why wouldn't they? In curaga's idea, there's a legitimate hardware issue (lack of floppy drive). Windows (NT and beyond) itself is neutral as to how you load other OSes. One basic way to do it is explained in the link above -- edit BOOT.INI and chainload GRUB (or LILO or whatever).
| Quote |
| So Norton probably keeps an eye out for weird stuff, like for example, some upstart app screwing around with the MBR... Gotta be up to something. |
Upstart? Weird? Find a list of viruses (Norton lists them on their site and probably on your computer) and note how many affect MBR. Boot sector viruses are very common. (EDIT: They're very NUMEROUS. Less a problem now as floppies have become rather antiquated.)
< http://www.viruslist.com/en/virusesdescribed?chapter=152540474 >
| Quote |
| Sorry if I'm repeating what others have already said. Old news to you, maybe, but it's *all* new to me. |
Then I have another thing to ask of you. Please use parentheses instead of brackets. Ikonboard (forum software here) uses those brackets for formatting.
| Quote |
| I wonder if it's possible to reboot the machine, not just DSL, from within DSL, within Windows? |
Why would anyone want or need to do that? Upon reboot, you'd either end right back up at BOOT.INI, GRUB, LILO, etc., or whatever you have.
| Quote |
| I've been thinking, and reading a lot about boot-loaders lately, because really, it's the first thing most newbies ever see outside a Windows environment. And if the initial learning curve's too steep, it might be all they ever see. Seriously, if things don't work, won't boot, the system looks fried, and your girlfriend's going to FREAK if she can't check her email when she gets home, and she'll be home any minute, and... Well, you know. :-\ |
Bootloaders shouldn't be noticed. They're only there to ask the user what to do (if there are any boot options) and to do it.
| Quote |
| BTW, does Grub have a lot of online help built into it? |
Nope. Certainly not in DSL.
< http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/grub.html >
| Quote |
| You have to admit, sitting there in front of some foreign command promt whose ways are unkown to you, with the possibility of just one typo screwing things up so *neither* system will boot properly, is a bit scary. |
That's an issue where curaga and I didn't see eye to eye about the same time this thread was active (check the dates when you reply?). My position is that things like bootloaders and anything written to MBR aren't to be taken lightly, especially in the hands of people who lack experience and/or knowledge. Typos are trivial -- those can be corrected fairly easily.
Posted by the Missing M on Mar. 22 2007,06:14
| Quote (lucky13 @ Mar. 21 2007,16:16) | ||
My mileage varies from yours, and I disagree with you that curaga's idea is helpful with respect to interoperability or dual booting. The latter is something which is better handled in better ways. Maybe it's my background working with NT, but it and XP and Vista are all relatively friendly when it comes to sharing space on a hard drive with another OS. < http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/h/2337 > |
Okay, thanks. :-)
All I knew was, these things have to be reset whenever you install or upgrade Windows, because it tends to rewrite the MBR on installation. I've also noticed that it's near-impossible to map some extensions to some applications in XP (.htm to any browser that's not IE, for example. Try it). Found a utility to get around it, but this is the wrong board for that. Guess I should change my .sig too. :-\
Right now I can't get direct access to the BIOS, and from what I could find online, that's a pretty common condition with Compaq Armada 1700 laptops. But from what you just posted, looks like I won't need direct access. :-) Thanks again.
| Quote | ||
Upstart? Weird? Find a list of viruses (Norton lists them on their site and probably on your computer) and note how many affect MBR. Boot sector viruses are very common. (EDIT: They're very NUMEROUS. Less a problem now as floppies have become rather antiquated.)< http://www.viruslist.com/en/virusesdescribed?chapter=152540474 > |
Yeah. Weird stuff like that. And if an application did that kind of thing without my asking it to, I'd feel pretty suspicios about it myself.
Please understand that I'm coming at this from a Mac background, and have very rarely used, or needed, an antivirus scanner or firewall until recently. OS 9 though, so it does need regular restarts, and a confused/misbehaving app can crash the system.
| Quote | ||
Then I have another thing to ask of you. Please use parentheses instead of brackets. Ikonboard (forum software here) uses those brackets for formatting. |
Sorry, old habit. But I've noticed that on boards like this, it only formats the ones it recognizes as tags. I will avoid using them in future replies to you though, if you find them annoying.
(BTW, this; :-) is intentional. I'm not too fond of iconic smileys myself, but disabling them in my replies to others also forces *quoted* smileys into text-mode, which is probably not what the original author had in mind.)
| Quote | ||||
Bootloaders shouldn't be noticed. They're only there to ask the user what to do (if there are any boot options) and to do it.
Nope. Certainly not in DSL. < http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/grub.html > |
Umm, actually...
< http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/grub.html#help >
| Quote | ||
That's an issue where curaga and I didn't see eye to eye about the same time this thread was active (check the dates when you reply?). |
First time I saw it was just yesterday, and the last post was only a week old.
| Quote |
| My position is that things like bootloaders and anything written to MBR aren't to be taken lightly, especially in the hands of people who lack experience and/or knowledge. |
Absolutely not, which is why that `help' command looks so good right now. :-)
My position, or guess at least, was that DSL, like Knoppix, like Ubuntu, Kubuntu, KDE and others (please let's not talk about Linux XP...) are meant to offer a smooth entry-level learning curve. Kind of `Welcome to Linux!' systems. Not that they lack power at all, but that they're intended to make for a smoother transition. Gateway distros, if you will, which can only lead to the hard stuff. ;-)
So naturally, I wondered how to make one of the earliest, and potentially one of the most frustrating steps a little easier (eg, risking an HD that won't boot, which would prevent you from going online to look up the answers to your problems for a while. Something to consider, if one owns only one machine).
Okay, this has totally drifted now, and I really should start a new thread for it, if any.
Posted by curaga on Mar. 22 2007,10:49
There is one big advantage in this method: it can be all done from Windows! (even XP or Vista)So tablet pc's and so, which can't boot from floppy, cd, net, usb... Can use fdisk and rawrite to get DSL running, and then install a "proper" bootloader, if they wish...
Posted by lucky13 on Mar. 22 2007,17:11
MissingM:| Quote |
| I've also noticed that it's near-impossible to map some extensions to some applications in XP (.htm to any browser that's not IE, for example. Try it). |
It's pretty easy to change defaults in XP. It was just as easy in NT and even in 95/98. Download and install any browser and on first use it will ask if you want it to be your default. Same thing with media players like WinAmp or (gag, what a bloated pig) iTunes. Then the only issue is making sure you click the "Don't Ask Me This Again" box next time you start IE or WMP and it asks if you want it to be your default again. (It's easier in XP than 95/98 if you ever change your mind and want to change defaults after clicking the box, too.)
| Quote |
| Right now I can't get direct access to the BIOS, and from what I could find online, that's a pretty common condition with Compaq Armada 1700 laptops. |
I've never been a fan of Compaq because of some of their hardware quirks. The BIOS issue is strictly Compaq's (or any other assembler's) doing, not Microsoft's.
| Quote |
| DSL, like Knoppix, like Ubuntu, Kubuntu, KDE and others (please let's not talk about Linux XP...) are meant to offer a smooth entry-level learning curve. Kind of `Welcome to Linux!' systems. |
Some people would disagree with that assessment. They're "easy" in the sense that you can boot them live on CD (or other devices). Ubuntu/Kubuntu (same thing, different desktops) is probably the most new user-friendly of the ones you named with respect to installing as a traditional OS with a lot of auto-configuration; Mepis is in the same league with Ubuntu, maybe a little "easier" even. And KDE isn't a distro, it's a desktop environment with a full suite of applications in the tradition of Windows' and Mac's user environments.
Now, curaga...
| Quote |
| There is one big advantage in this method: it can be all done from Windows! |
That's not an advantage over:
1. Loadlin DSL from FAT (Win) partition
2. ZipSlack
3. Dyne
4. etc.
See:
< http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Loadlin+Win95-98-ME.html >
< http://lab.dyne.org/Docking >
< http://www.slackware.com/zipslack/ >
Etc.
Posted by ^thehatsrule^ on Mar. 22 2007,17:20
| Quote (curaga @ Mar. 22 2007,05:49) |
| There is one big advantage in this method: it can be all done from Windows! (even XP or Vista) So tablet pc's and so, which can't boot from floppy, cd, net, usb... Can use fdisk and rawrite to get DSL running, and then install a "proper" bootloader, if they wish... |
Just to point something out... (if it isnt too obvious)
You could load an image of other bootloaders instead (ie grub)
Not that it would be ideal still unless you really wanted a partition just for a bootloader...
And I don't think you can run fdisk if windows is already running from the device...?
Posted by lucky13 on Mar. 22 2007,18:15
| Quote (^thehatsrule^ @ Mar. 22 2007,12:20) |
| And I don't think you can run fdisk if windows is already running from the device...? |
Excellent point.
Posted by curaga on Mar. 23 2007,06:20
Then a 30-day trial of partition magic or so would do it... Many people create at least 2 partitions in the beginning, so XP and programs dont interfere. If there is some free space, then fdisk is ok.Loadlin cannot use XP or Vista (I think) so it's out of question,
and a grub image would be good, but it's not available as easily as the bootfloppy.
ZipSlack and Dyne look good, but they aren't DSL
And that partition can be turned afterwards to swap or merged to other partitions..
Posted by lucky13 on Mar. 23 2007,08:22
| Quote (curaga @ Mar. 23 2007,01:20) |
| Then a 30-day trial of partition magic or so would do it... |
No, it really wouldn't do it. Not when there are much better tools -- much better ways to skin that cat -- available.
| Quote |
| Many people create at least 2 partitions in the beginning, so XP and programs dont interfere. |
1. That's not why XP and Vista use two partitions (recommended). One is for system recovery.
2. The system recovery partition isn't 1.44-2 MB. It's many times that. Per what you allude to below about turning it into a swap later, that would presume ditching the recovery partition and/or Windows altogether. Is that a very practical idea for someone who uses a computer for work, personal recordkeeping, etc., or who intends to keep and use Windows on that hard drive? Nope.
3. A floppy image installed to a 1.44-2 MB (or even a 500 MB recovery) partition would still require a bootloader. Chicken or egg, curaga?
4. ETC.
| Quote |
| If there is some free space, then fdisk is ok. |
No, it isn't.
| Quote |
| Loadlin cannot use XP or Vista (I think) so it's out of question, |
There are still much more practical ways to skin your cat.
< http://marc.herbert.free.fr/linux/win2linstall.html >
| Quote |
| and a grub image would be good, but it's not available as easily as the bootfloppy. |
See above link.
| Quote |
| ZipSlack and Dyne look good, but they aren't DSL |
My point is that neither ZipSlack nor Dyne nor DSL requires a 1.44-2MB partition with a boot floppy to load or install Linux in (or near) a Windows environment.
| Quote |
| And that partition can be turned afterwards to swap or merged to other partitions.. |
A 2MB swap? LOL! That'll teach me to get on here after an all-nighter.
Even if you really, really, seriously DO mean screwing up an entire 500+ MB Windows recovery partition just to install a 1.44 MB floppy image to do something that's much more easily accomplished in much more user-friendly ways, I'm TOTALLY against suggesting Windows users screw around with their recovery partitions for this purpose, make new partitions especially for this "alternative technique," OR turn their recovery partitions into Linux swap partitions unless they intend to ditch Windows altogether. Most people want and need stable systems; that includes recovery partitions (I set one up on this computer for Linux so I have a quick place to make and store frequent /home tarballs). It's not a very good idea to get a 30-day license and play around with partitions for a month.
(Edited formatting -- one slash -- only.)
Posted by the Missing M on Mar. 25 2007,16:10
(Note to Admins: the following has nothing to do with DSL, let alone booting DSL without a floppy drive, but follows naturally from what lucky13 and I were talking about. Please let let me know if I'm doing anything inappropriate.)| Quote (lucky13 @ Mar. 22 2007,05:11) | ||
MissingM:
It's pretty easy to change defaults in XP. It was just as easy in NT and even in 95/98. Download and install any browser and on first use it will ask if you want it to be your default. |
Okay, .htm was a bad example. I meant file associations, not default browser settings, which are actually pretty clear and straightforward.
Nice to know you've had an easier time of it, because this is much closer to what I've been seeing;
< http://www.memecode.com/docs/winxp-problems.php >
And with that in mind, maybe I should `upgrade' to Win2000 as my second-choice OS. Note that he does say a few nice things about that one, even in mid-rant.
Actually, on the weight of this, and your positive experience with other versions, I did go and order a Win2000 CD off of eBay last night.
| Quote |
| Same thing with media players like WinAmp or (gag, what a bloated pig) iTunes. |
Heh, fair enough. :-) I've got an older version, from the days before it got really huge.
| Quote | ||
I've never been a fan of Compaq because of some of their hardware quirks. |
And rightly so, as I'm quickly discovering. Can't be too critical though, because it was a gift.
(My position, or guess at least, was that...)
| Quote | ||
Some people would disagree with that assessment. They're "easy" in the sense that you can boot them live on CD (or other devices). Ubuntu/Kubuntu (same thing, different desktops) is probably the most new user-friendly of the ones you named with respect to installing as a traditional OS with a lot of auto-configuration; Mepis is in the same league with Ubuntu, maybe a little "easier" even. |
Well that's good news, because one other CD I've got coming in the mail is SimplyMEPIS 6.0 . And there's a FluxBuntu? Looks like I'll be starting a collection... (Anything that uses GNOME or KDE looks like it'll be a little out of my reach, or at the very least, irritatingly slow. So the FluxBox reference in another post caught my eye.)
| Quote |
| And KDE isn't a distro, it's a desktop environment with a full suite of applications in the tradition of Windows' and Mac's user environments. |
No, and I should have mentioned it and GNOME separately, as kinder, gentler front-ends for whatever Linux (or even UNIX?) engine you choose to put under the hood. I tend to forget about GNOME because of its hardware requirements; doubt it'll run smoothly, maybe not at all on this machine.
But on the plus side, the very existence of the GNOME < Human Interface Guidelines > is very encouraging. :-) From there, < world domination > can't be too far off.
(Please excuse the recycled URL...)
Patrick.
Posted by lucky13 on Mar. 25 2007,16:44
Mepis is very KDE-oriented. You can add other window managers via apt-get/synaptic. You'll still have a lot of KDE stuff running in the background unless you start tinkering with it.As far as Windows goes, I don't share the opinions expressed on the site you linked to. I used to administer NT servers and also used NT on workstation (still have an old 200 mhz box with NT workstation). I don't esteem NT twice as much as XP, nor would I only esteem XP twice as much as 3.1. I wouldn't give ME passing scores over XP. I don't know his baseline for such metrics, but the relationship between any OS and the hardware it's run on is paramount to any comparison.
Each progressive step Windows takes requires more resources -- just like Linux. You don't get fancy Aero graphics engines and you can't run Beryl without investing in more bleeding edge hardware required to run them. You can run XP and ME and NT on older hardware, but the resource-demand is much higher the more recent the version is. If running XP and ME on the same computer, I'd definitely expect ME to be more responsive but only because its system demands are significantly reduced.
The comparison between Win versions is similar to comparing different Linux distros on the basis of how they're configured and what they include (kernel version is a lot less important in this respect than everything else on top of it). DSL is blazing fast on all my computers compared to Mepis or Kubuntu -- as should be expected because DSL doesn't require the resources (RAM, hard drive space, CPU cycles) used by distros that cram their distros with every possible bell and whistle and start them all up by default. I have relatively minimal installs of Slackware and OpenBSD so they're also very responsive compared to something that installs KDE by default (though I did give in and add KDE to OpenBSD). I can run whatever I want on my newer hardware. I can't run KDE- or GNOME-based distros very well on the older ones. (Caveat: I still have older distro versions that were perfectly suitable for older hardware at the time of release and they're "faster" and more responsive than more recent, much larger, and more resource-hungry versions.)
This is way off-topic now. Reply via email if you want to continue.