Improved self -learning help . (wiki/howto/tutor)
Forum: DSL Ideas and Suggestions
Topic: Improved self -learning help . (wiki/howto/tutor)
started by: william99
Posted by william99 on July 21 2007,18:20
I believe there is explanation for every problem in the web, just use the search, or uncle google. but would it be nicer if DSL have a more complete wiki or how to. not all new user are experience with linux. besides it could save a lot of question in the forum.NB: My first post. thanks for allowing me to use the board
Posted by lucky13 on July 21 2007,19:22
What specifically do you think is lacking in the wiki? One of the great things about the wiki is anyone can contribute.
Posted by william99 on July 21 2007,19:35
what i mean is the lack of information in wiki most of them are just the basic needs of dsl. i'm looking for more info how to improve dsl capabilities. and i am hoping the wiki could be more organize and up to date. for example this is what i found could be usefull www.gentoo-wiki.com/Index:HOWTO
Posted by lucky13 on July 21 2007,19:57
| Quote |
| i'm looking for more info how to improve dsl capabilities. |
Such as?
Posted by william99 on July 21 2007,20:31
since dsl is cut to it's size (50Mb). most of the apps are using mydsl. mydsl is fine but it has it's limit. not all apps will be included in mydsl. since i'm new to linux it's kinda hard for me to installing apps. info i was looking for such as how to make apps work with dsl. how to compile modules and apps. for example like i was installing XFree86 it takes me around three days to make it working. i have to google use the search. it is more like a puzzle, i have to take pieces of it and combine it into one.
yes the forum helps alot. you could post ur question and the community will help you. but the info needed it's all to scattered around the forum and you have to search it thread to thread. it will be nice if the info such as tutorial and step by step guide are also posted in wiki. but in the other hand to have a great wiki it is not such an easy task. most of the wiki's are contributed from it's community so it will take times to build a full wiki
Posted by jpeters on July 22 2007,03:11
| Quote (william99 @ July 21 2007,16:31) |
| but the info needed it's all to scattered around the forum and you have to search it thread to thread. |
Regarding apps, you're expected to find documentation at the site for the app; basic stuff is in the wiki. I'd recommend the DSL book available...then there's one coming out this month. There are far too many topics, levels of involvement, and ongoing changes to put in any one place.
Posted by lucky13 on July 22 2007,13:14
| Quote |
| since dsl is cut to it's size (50Mb). most of the apps are using mydsl. mydsl is fine but it has it's limit. not all apps will be included in mydsl. |
I'm not sure your frame of reference since you brought up Gentoo before, but comparing Gentoo (a source-based distro) to DSL (a binary-based distro) is apples and oranges. DSL isn't monolithic in the sense that it's a live CD; it's also not limited to binary extensions (MyDSL, Debian via apt-get) since there are compilers that allow users to compile their own apps and utilities.
DSL comes with just about everything most people need: file management tools, text editing and word processing apps, internet tools like browsers and an e-mail client, file transfer utilities like ftp, and so on. MyDSL extensions allow DSL to be treated more modularly and customized. You need more power than Ted? Go get abiword or Open Office. You want support for non-free multimedia codecs? There are apps there for that. Etc. But it's very useful as it is on the CD.
As jpeters wrote in his reply and as you previously noted, documentation for each app is widely available online. As convenient as it would be to post step-by-step instructions to suit every user's needs, it's just not practical. It would also be overly redundant (something which is at odds with the DSL philosophy).
If you think there's a shortcoming in the wiki, please add to it. That's why it's there.
And as far as "not all apps will be available," they're not all available in any other distro, either. The nature of open source is such that new apps pop up all the time, old ones don't continue development, and very few people can keep up with everything in between. If there's an app you want in MyDSL, try making it yourself. The extensions are community-driven.
There are reasons Gentoo has such extensive documentation compared to, say, Slackware or DSL. First, Gentoo is source-based and has proven to be a difficult adjustment for most new users. Second, Gentoo attempts to be more like a BSD than a Linux distro. One of the areas where the BSDs have an edge over Linux is their man pages and related documentation, and Gentoo appears to subscribe to the old Unix philosophy that it's better to provide too much information than not enough. DSL, of course, strips man pages and gives you tools and browsers to find information online rather than on your CD or hard drive. Different strokes.
| Quote |
| for example like i was installing XFree86 it takes me around three days to make it working. i have to google use the search. it is more like a puzzle, i have to take pieces of it and combine it into one. |
XFree86 can be a pain in the ___ (select appropriate body part) to configure regardless of how much documentation you have to start with. If you look at the info file for that extension, note that it has warnings in capital letters that it's not a plug and play extension; it also has links for more information. I hope you noticed all that before you started.
| Quote |
| in the other hand to have a great wiki it is not such an easy task. most of the wiki's are contributed from it's community so it will take times to build a full wiki |
Which is why it's up to people like you and me to fill in any glaring holes. Consider adding to it as you learn, especially if you successfully got XFree86 set up for your hardware. Take an active role.
Posted by william99 on July 22 2007,16:54
regarding apps it is true that they supply man page either in the package or on their web. but their man pages are for average linux user, which is hard for new user to understand. sometimes they did give step by step manual but step by step are for eg. suse / red hat, they dont give specific info for dsl.my reference for gentoo is only their man pages. i've never tried any other linux distro. i am only using DSL distro which i admitted it is a great distro especially it has improved a lot since the first time i knew about DSL (v.0.9.x)
my point is DSL could have a more man page that teaches people like how to compile their own apps. so people like me and any other new linux users could learn how to compile their wanted apps or tools etc. it doesn't have to include all of the apps. which i assume it is impossible to create man pages for all apps and stuff. just few common apps that people use so they can learn how to compile their own apps.
about XFree it is sure pain in the ***. as soon i understand enough about DSL i will take part in the wiki. right now i dont understand completely about it so i wont write something which i don't completely understand. just to make sure other people don't get in trouble just in case i miss wrote about something.
nb: where can i found link on how to compile linux kernel (specifically DSL 3.4) sometimes i cant compile apps cause by incorrect kernel source configuration
Posted by lucky13 on July 22 2007,20:29
| Quote |
| my point is DSL could have a more man page that teaches people like how to compile their own apps. |
Compile source or make DSL extensions? When compiling from source, there's usually a README, an INSTALL, or both files. Additionally, you can do the following and see if there are any features you want to enable or disable that may not be included in the INSTALL and/or README:
| Code Sample |
| ./configure --help | less |
The less pipe will let you scroll through the output. Sometimes that's helpful, sometimes it just has the basic configure options like prefix (the directory to which you'll install whatever it is you're compiling, e.g., to /opt or /usr/local).
The basic commands to compile source (assuming you've installed a C compiler such as the gcc extension) are basic:
./configure (with whatever options)
make
sudo make install
You can take the easy road with things that play well with everything and do it on one line:
./configure && make && sudo make install
(You can add whatever options you need to the configure part before the first ampersand pair.)
Some things are a little different than that (pine/pico/pilot comes to mind), some will include a Makefile that may or may not need to be edited. Read the information that comes with it and you'll be fine. That's why it's there. With so many people putting out so many apps, it's difficult to give pat instructions in a wiki beyond "read the INSTALL and/or README files, then run ./configure, make, make install."
As far as building extensions go, there are a couple pages in the wiki and clivesay's deb2dsl tutorial is available here:
< http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites....ion.pdf >
Anything else?
Edit: I was weeding out some old podcasts and you might be interested in this one. The Linux Reality series of podcasts is geared to people new to Linux.
< http://www.linuxreality.com/podcast/episode-41-compiling-from-source/ >
Posted by curaga on July 23 2007,08:45
Sorry to bump in, but some packages do not have any docs, not even man pages, not even on the program site. Betaftpd for example..
Posted by mikshaw on July 23 2007,15:03
BetaFtpd doesn't have a manual because the binary has no user-configurable seetings. Once it's compiled the only thing you can do with it is start and stop. Maybe there should be more info about compile time options and editing the source.Anyway, yes I agree with the original poster that documentation could be improved. This has always been the case and always will be. I also agree with lucky13 that documentation that is not specific to DSL or the tools written for DSL should not be expected to necessarily be included here. There are many places around the internet where you can learn how to compile applications and configue a Linux environment. When such configuration requires special steps unique to DSL (such as with backup/restore), it is that bit of information which is provided here.
As with any new Linux user, the new DSL user *must* learn some of the basics of GNU/Linux in order to do anything more than use a few "clicky" applications. The difference is that most distros come with hundreds of megabytes of redundant "basics of Linux" docs, and DSL does not have that luxury.
< http://www.tldp.org/ >
< http://www.google.com/linux >
Posted by jpeters on July 23 2007,20:30
| Quote (mikshaw @ July 23 2007,11:03) |
| Anyway, yes I agree with the original poster that documentation could be improved. |
Like M$, for example. Take this morning, when my girlfriend's internet connection went down. I click "help" and the first thing they ask is "sir, do you have a Zyxel AG-225H attached to a Sony Vaio?" I click "yes," and it says a possible problem is that the USB port isn.t supplying enough charge to keep it running, "do you need further assistance in solving the problem?" Again, I click "yes," and it tells me to disconnect the AG-225H and plug it into my Dell laptop upstairs for a while, which I do. After 10 minutes, I run down and type, "what next?" and it tells me to disconnect the AG-225H from the Dell, and reconnect it back into the the Sony Vaio USB port. Wala...problem solved!! Yes, DSL needs the kind of support we're all used to from M$S help.
Posted by mikshaw on July 24 2007,02:46
huh....I've never found the help in Windows to be much help at all.
Posted by jpeters on July 24 2007,03:36
| Quote (mikshaw @ July 23 2007,22:46) |
| huh.... I've never found the help in Windows to be much help at all. |
Geez, I thought I was being obvious...guess not
Posted by mikshaw on July 24 2007,12:59
sarcasm/irony doesn't print well.But mostly I didn't pay close enough attention to what you actually said =o)
Posted by william99 on July 24 2007,15:49
guys.. thanks for the links. anyway if the man page want to be improved it is up 2 us not the dsl team. they have enough already 
Posted by vishal on Aug. 13 2007,13:06
Hello every one,If dsl needs more popular in linux distro.Dsl have need to build ubuntu like documention.
Posted by lucky13 on Aug. 13 2007,17:27
The source of Ubuntu's documentation is no different from DSL's: it's community-based. It's up to the user community to build wikis, lend support in the forums, etc.Now I'll turn up the flames...
I think there's a qualitative difference between the core users of each distro that accounts in the differences between how didactic/pedantic their mutual documentation is. Ubuntu users tend to be primarily Windows users who require more hand-holding in a Linux environment and whose frame of reference is on ease of use at any price. DSL's user base tends to already have experience with Linux/BSD/Unix. Ubuntu users NEED the information; DSL users like DSL because it strips documentation. Jem Matzan wrote about this Ubuntu-for-dummies phenomenon recently on his blog:
< http://www.thejemreport.com/mambo/content/view/340 >
That said, there's a lot more we can do to add content to the wiki so even Ubuntu users can figure out DSL. I would even move my blog here, or at least the DSL-relevant content, if John would get it set up correctly. The "I'll be setting this thing up in the next few days" message has been there for a few months now.
Posted by vishal on Aug. 14 2007,08:13
Hi,Have any dsl books.