Help Beginners Help Themselves

Forum: DSL Ideas and Suggestions
Topic: Help Beginners Help Themselves
started by: clivesay

Posted by clivesay on Feb. 02 2005,18:14

I have been doing alot of thinking lately on how do we help new people get going with DSL. With the increased amount of press that DSL is receiving the user base is only going to continue to multiply at a rapid rate.

For information we currently have the forum, doc project and the DSLinfo bot in IRC. The regulars of this community are truly bright people that offer alot of useful information....almost an overwhelming amount. Despite all these resources, we still have multiple threads of things like "I can't boot my usb drive". I was very guilty of this myself early on and still make the mistakes of asking before searching from time to time.

My question is can we have a "Click here first if you are new to DSL" type button or something and place it on the main page, the forum index board, or wherever else appropriate. Once they click on that, they are given the link to the docs project, the forum search page with an example of how to search, a link to google.com/linux and maybe an overview of the DSLInfo bot.

People need to understand that using these methods will answer many of their questions faster than posting in a forum or waiting for ke4nt, saidin, tronik, myself, etc to jump on IRC. I personally would like IRC be a little more light and fun rather than just be an alternative to searching or using the docs.

Bottom line, if you're truly stuck ask a question. If you don't want to take the time to search a little, maybe you aren't quite ready to learn something new right now.

Just my thoughts.

Chris

Posted by linux_gal on Feb. 03 2005,01:03

I think the real problem with most Linux docs is that they are by programmers
for programmers. Info files at least have a few examples. The other problem
is that there is so much to absorb at one time! DOS has a few dozen programs and internal words to use. With BASH there are tons of scripts
so study just to learn the commands. I sometimes wonder if an alternate LS
command that displayed a description with the executable name (ah, like
4dos) might be helpful for newbies and old-bees who don't recognize some new feature until they trip over it. - -

Posted by green on Feb. 03 2005,01:41

I'll add my two cents to this one.

Yes, I am guilty as charged. I'm a noob/newb, hoping to graduate out of it someday.

From my perspective, a lot of docs I've read that are supposed to help new folks, take a lot for granted. This is no new subject. All forums and distro's I've played with discuss this issue and have the same perceived problem.

Just being honest here, it seems to me that whomever is going to be responsible for documentation take a stand and say, "this is the style of doc that we are writing. If you don't like it, we are sorry. But that does not mean we don't want you around to enjoy this distro with us." I say this because most docs take a lot for granted. Myself and so many others have been completely brainwashed by the microsoft way of doing things that it is very difficult for some us to break out of that. I am learning, maybe slowly, but learning none the less and all of the individuals mentioned in your post (Clivesay), including you, have helped me at one time or another. And quite frankly, I don't think I would understand some of the concepts without that personal assistance.

So, for the record, let me say thank you for your patience and thank you to the others as well.

With all that said (here's the meat), most docs are written by someone with knowledge of the subject at hand (i should hope) but I have to wonder if they themselves have forgotten what it was like to look at Linux or DSL in particular and say, "what IS that?" "I like it, but have no idea what it is, but I wanna know more!" Does that sound familiar? What about those who have never done more than check email and browse the web? Not trying to belittle anyone, but those types will not know what to do in the least. Using windows they never had to go read anything, tweak this, or change that or "go in as root." I remember thinking, "What the hell is that?" See the perspective?

I understand some people may get tired of answering the same old questions all the time.

So, back to my earlier comment, it comes down to this:

"Look Mr/Mrs Noob, if you don't understand, go look for it because I ain't gonna help you until you do AND make some kind of attempt at it AFTER you go look for the answer AND I can tell if you looked for the answer by the way you word your questions."

Either you let everyone know up front that this is how it's gonna be OR you answer all those questions again and again and like it.

Disclaimer: The word 'you' contained in the above is not directed at any idividual in particular, but is used in the general sense of word. In this case it means, 'you' as 'anyone' who takes it upon themselves to answer a question or assist in some manner.

P.S.
The IRC chat has been 'advertised' as a place to get help if you need it. Kinda like a tutor, is the way I took it. That's why some people go there. Perhaps one channel for 'help' and another for 'socializing' would be in order and have them 'advertised' as such. Just a thought. However, I'm still gonna ask 'you' questions anytime I need to. But no one has to answer.

Posted by clivesay on Feb. 03 2005,03:28

green -

I agree with you on pretty much everything. Don't take my post as a slap at noobs. I am only one year into linux myself.

Linux docs can be very kryptic, no doubt. My point is that this forum contains alot of great info. The people here don't just explain how to do something, they also contribute the commands, script, code or whatever. Then, you have a couple guys who step up and pull the "greatest hits" from the forum and create an entire project around documentation.

We should leverage these things to guide people when they are starting out. Part of the documentation project was a thread teaching people how to effectively post a question. This helps the noob find info and understand how to effectively get their questions answered.

IRC is for asking questions for sure. My point is why come to IRC and ask where the icon files are before you have searched for any info only to have me pull up the DSL forum, click search and paste the url into IRC?

Again, I am not trying to talk down to anyone, I am just proposing a way to get the info to people faster than creating a new thread and waiting for someone to reply?

I see the work being done here to make information user-friendly so let's use it.

and green, I'll help you anytime.

Chris

Posted by green on Feb. 03 2005,03:57

Clivesay,

I do not take your post as a slap against noob's. Your help here is priceless.

I also agree with you on your points. I don't really know how to express it very well, but I was just thinking that if there was way that the noob's could not miss certain information (like Dillo poping up when they boot the CD) then it would be nice. I think the real problem is that some are readers and some are not. I'm lazy, but I'll read. Sometimes I have to be prompted to read (never did find lilo AND PM... SU) .

I am officially offering my help if needed to write something or somethings for noob's, from my noob perspective, to be reviewed and maybe used for some purpose. Of course my knowledge is limited, but am willing to contribute.

Posted by mikshaw on Feb. 03 2005,04:52

Working with Bash IS a lot more complicated than with DOS...there's no avoiding that. One of the great advantages of a Linux system is that it is modular....from a shell script you can run and pipe practically any program. This means that someone who writes a script needs to know at least the basics of many commands. What it doesn't mean is that the end-user has to know these commands, but it wouldn't hurt. The same commands found in scripts can be run from console or menu item, and modified to suit the user's needs.

The Linux environment practically begs the user to put in some time to learn about what is happening under the hood. I know I've said this before, but it's my belief that if a person doesn't want to be bothered to learn a LOT, they are probably not ready to use Linux for anything more than simple tasks, or those which can be performed with a big bloaty graphics interface such as what you'd find in Windows. If the person knows they have to study a bit, that's a good start. At this point they could be guided in the direction of documents and tutorials which will help them on their way.

However, most people who develop software don't have the time or the desire to document everything for everyone...there has to be some level of assumption. If you spend the time and effort it takes to make things as easy as possible for the largest number of people then you sacrifice that time which could be spent on making a better application. In order to create such explicit documentation, I think the task needs to be taken on by someone other than the software developer....someone who knows the application, but also has the time to build easy-to-follow documentation. Since there aren't many people like that, we have something else which seems to work fairly well: There are bigillions of online forums which are created with the sole purpose of sharing Linux knowledge and helping others.

This brings me back to the original subject....yes it would be helpful to give noobs a nudge toward searching rather than asking the same questions over and over.

Posted by softgun on Feb. 03 2005,17:08

I think the documentation project is important. If this is done well and weak/unclear areas continuously improved, newbies will find things easier. Suggestions from newbies about the documentation should be taken into some consideration.

Using a real example to try out is the way to teach, not vague things which will give rise to more questions.

Many newbiew will do well to say how they did it when they succeed. This maybe better understood by other newbies.

I have learnt a lot from the docs and the forum, but one area still eludes me. How to save the settings to the live CD itself.

RobertS says that if we edit the filetool.lst and do a backup, then rename the backup.tar.gz as myconf.tar.gz and then write it into the boot sector of a DSL CD, it should restore when we start the CD.

I tried to get my list of bookmarks to work.

I replaced the /home/dsl/.mozilla/firefox/bookmarks.html with my own bookmarks.html file, then edited the filetool.lst by adding the /home/dsl/.mozilla/firefox/bookmarks.html line and saved it.
Then I did a backup and renamed the backup.tar.gz file as myconf.tar.gz and wrote it to the root partition of my DSL CD.

When I rebooted I still get the default bookmarks.html file. Where have I gone wrong?

If I succeed in doing this I will be happy to document this :-)

Posted by sci_fi on Feb. 06 2005,19:56

Hello Softgun:

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your question. Easy to believe as I am a newb for sure. However, for what it is worth, this is what I have done to save my configuration on a liveCD.

1. Save via filetoolist my configuration (including bookmarks, etc.) to a hdd partition. Thus there is a backup.tar.gz file out there.

2. When I have it the way I want it. I begin the DSL remaster process.

3. I simply copy my current backup.tar.gz file to the newcd directory. No renaming or anything.

4. The new remastered CD has my entire configuration, including bookmarks.

I have some concerns about conflicts between the onCD configuration and what the DSL may find on boot on the hdd partition (usually I have changed things). I know it works, but off the top of my head, I can't remember which takes precedence.

Hope this is relevant to your question.

I have some thoughts on documentation, but for a later post.

Greg

Posted by softgun on Feb. 06 2005,20:13

Hello Greg,

Thanks for caring to reply. I have still not sorted this out!

When you mean remaster you do not mean creating empty partitions, large swap partitions, rip-CD etc now do you?

I like dsl because we can do things without all this.

Is there two differebt versions of the filetool.lst file? Am i writing to the wrong one?

If the backup.tar.gz works, all you have to do is, rename it myconf.tar.gz and paste it into the / parttition!

My problem is my backup fails to grab my bookmarks new file....

I am obviously doing something wrong, but what exactly is the question.

:-(

Posted by flying tuxman on Feb. 07 2005,20:12

I think all it'd take to avoid 90% of newbies questions (as many i ask myself) and newbies frustrations is a simple .pdf or .txt getting started guide with examples for any step needed to reach a basic functionality with DSL and linux in general.
the learning curve at the beginning is simply too steep to be able to use the forum properly cos the new terminology to be absorbed is too large.
redhat guides are a good example, where I think Debian pages tell you a bit too much and lack of examples.

Posted by noclobber on Feb. 09 2005,18:07

A dumb question:

Could the default settings on the forum Search page be changed to

Forums = All Open Forums, and
Search From = The Beginning and Newer?

A minor annoyance, yes, but something a newbie searcher might miss as I did when my first search covered only the last month's posts in the current forum.

Posted by cbagger01 on Feb. 10 2005,04:03

Now that must be

THE BEST D*MN IDEA I'VE READ IN A LONG TIME!

After a while, you get sick of having to tell the newbies to "Search the forum, choose ALL FORUMS and choose FROM THE BEGINNING or NEWER" for the millionth time.

Also, a nice blurb at the top of the Search page that explains the keyword syntax using examples like this would also help:

If you search for:

dog cat

then your results will be every thread that contains the word "dog" or "cat".

If you really wanted to search for ALL of the words (like google or Yahoo), you should type it in like this:

dog AND cat