Learning from Feather

Forum: DSL Ideas and Suggestions
Topic: Learning from Feather
started by: l0st

Posted by l0st on May 17 2004,10:38

Disclaimer: I'm not dissing feather or its author; they've done a great job
(Avoid the flames. ^^)

Feather has released 0.4.2, changelog:

Quote

Changes from 0.4.1 to 0.4.2:
- Added customisation ability - simply place all the .deb, .tgz and .tar.gz
files in an /extra directory on your CD-ROM or USB stick, create a
"deblist" file which contains the names of the .debs and the order to
install them, and then boot with "knoppix custom".
- Added PSS, a self-written music server to stream music over your network.
See /home/knoppix/docs/pss.html for details.
- Updated XMMS to 1.2.10
- Added gaim script
- tcc now works
- Removed knoppix-terminalserver because of unsatisfied dependencies
- Downgraded libpcap and tcpdump to 0.7.2 because of PPP problems and to
satisfy apt-get
- Added alsaconf and usbview and updated Getting Started accordingly
- Updated aMSN script to 0.91
- Added Lua properties sheet for SciTE
- Updated naim, and added links for nirc, nicq and nlily
- Removed TinyIRC as nirc is now available
- Updated and Debianised partimage
- Added the hostent Perl module for PSS
- Fixed wdict and xpuyopuyo script
- Added code to save memory on scripts
- Added icon creation to Openoffice.org script

Look at the bolded area. DSL currently allows only tar.gz AFAIK, correct me if I'm wrong. Allowing the installation of deb files AND select which packages to install would be wicked cool.

Don't flame me if I'm rambling

Posted by cbagger01 on May 17 2004,11:54

DSL version 0.7 has additional functionality to customize via *.dsl packages

While the number of packages are determined by people who are able to create them, they are better integrated into the menu structure.

I think that adding automatic *.deb re-installation would be a neat addition to Damn Small Linux, but the preferred route for popular new programs would be to create custom *.dsl packages with menu integration instead of installing a raw *.deb file.

*.deb install definately gives the more advanced user a ton of flexibility, though.

Posted by roberts on May 17 2004,14:17

Do you honestly think that that approach wasn't considered. For the orginal release: This is why not:

1. No icons
2. No fluxbox menus
3. Difficult to share with others because of 1 & 2
4. Wastes memory for docs, man pages, menus and other files nor really needed. ( remember is on the ramdisk)
5. Many deb packages require user interaction to setup
6. Dependencies requiring other pkgs not needed or wanted
7. Possibly breaking exisiting programs or infastructure

It seems to me that approach is not that friendly for the new user.

In my opinion it is better for the more advanced user to CLEAN up a deb pkg removing the unnecesssay files, adding icons, and menus, thereby reducing its size and making something that could easily be shared with even the newest of users.

Posted by roberts on May 17 2004,15:10

Oops forgot one:

8. Using debs would require restoring the dpkg structure thus using even more of the ramdisk.

Posted by Lighter on May 17 2004,19:31

Hi all,

I have been using DSL for long now and have seen the birth of many distros built around DSL. Amongst the few I have always been interested in feather and recently to LuitLinux. Now please don't throw those flames on me too by starting a talk about luit. I think we can learn a lot from these new distros. Also I feel that DSL developers are also learning something from them. Right from the DSL getting started screen to recent additions like abiword and gcombust shows that DSL developers are going through them.

Regarding user customisation by adding .dsl and tar.gz files to the cd, honestly I think a small credit should also be given to Luit. As far as I remember, in the very first release of Luit a couple of months back, Luit had shown how to add mozilla firefox to the CD by a user. It had 2 options for adding firefox. One as a tar.gz format and the other to install firefox on the cd itself. I think now DSL and later feather have brought the first optiont in a bigger and better way.

Now let me bring forward to you all some personal experiences of mine with these options.

1. It was just yesterday that I came through this forum that Luit had released mplayer for DSL and Luit. So I downloaded it and burnt a copy of DSL 0.7 with mplayer.tar.gz from luit and also abiword.dsl and firefox.dsl. I then tried to boot from the CD but then it got stuck in the middle. The culprit .. mplayer.tar.gz from luit. Reason.. DSL 0.7 by default scans the CD for any tar.gz and .dsl file extentions and tries to install it and mplayer.tar.gz wasn't meant to installed like this. I tried options to stop this and then soon realised my cd is of no use anymore. According to my openion, it is ok to scan for an extention like .dsl but I find no reason why such a common file extention like tar.gz should be searched for. It is also a bad idea to automatically scan for .dsl files as I say about it in my next experience. I think it should only be installed only when required as had been shown in the first edition of Luit.

2. Regarding my other experience, it was only the other day that I was burning a copy of DSL 0.7 with the openoffice.dsl module. I then tried to boot from the CD. But no luck as I had only 256MB RAM. I will now have to upgrade to 500MB RAM to use my CD. Now look at this point. It has been mentioned that we can customise DSL and make a full 700MB cd on our own. But then what are we asking for. 2GB of RAM to be aproximate to run a 700MB myDSL CD. I think we can put this away from our mind for the moment. Lets see a second possibility. I burn a copy of DSL 0.7 with abiword.dsl and try to boot a PC with 32 MB RAM . Remember, we make a live CD to be able to boot any PC or to rescue other PC's. Now if I am not wrong, abiword.dsl will require about 20 to 25 MB of extra RAM. Now will that PC be able to run? The very concept of DSL being able to run in a low end PC is lost while Luit and Astrumi is happy to run abiword in under 32MB RAM.

Now I would like to be clear that I am not bringing these experiences of mine to rebuke the DSL developers or to praise luit or others. In fact we all have to accept that it takes some time to perfect a new idea. Now here are some of my openions for future DSL.

1. Please add an option to stop automatic scanning of .dsl and tar.gz files and allow the users to install them ony when one is required.

2. I think we can also take from luit the second option to install softwares on the CD itself. Thus we can then save RAM space. At least firefox, openoffice and some packages can be installed in such a way.

3. When option 2 may not be possible, we can have the option of installing a package on a temporary mounted hdd partition.

I think other's may also have some other better options than mine. ( Please don't say that RAM is dirt cheap ).

Posted by roberts on May 17 2004,19:41

Not to leave out those who live by debian packages heres how to do it right now with the current DSL 0.7 using myDSL:

Step 1. Run the following script to repackage the deb file infastructure to make a .dsl for the liveCD

Quote

#!/bin/sh
mkdir work
cd work
wget < http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/dpkg-install.tar >
tar -xvf dpkg-install.tar
bunzip2 dpkg.tar.bz2
gzip dpkg.tar
mv dpkg.tar.gz dsl-dpkg.dsl

Step 2: Copy the dsl-dpkg.dsl to where you normally put your other .dsl files

Step 3: Copy your favorite debs to the same place as your other .dsl files

Step 4: Edit /opt/bootlocal.sh adding lines such as the following to load only the SELECTED debs that you want loaded

dpkg -i /path_to_your_debs/deb_package_name_to_load

Repeat such lines for the debs you want loaded at boot time. Be sure to add /opt/bootlocal.sh to your filetool.lst and backup it up. Also be aware that this approach will most definately use more of your ramdisk.

Posted by roberts on May 17 2004,20:01

If you read the concept of myDSL it is meant to create a custom CD. Not a cd that will boot anywhere. A totally hands free, no user intervention, boot up system.

Already completed is DSL 0.7.1. Which has additional options for optional extensions. If you don't want anything automatically loaded then you can do that. You will be able to have a cd that can boot anywhere. You will still have an auto generated "installation" menu to make it easy for new users to then pick and choose what they want to install. Also included in 0.7.1 are other extenstion types which use considerable less ram.

I don't honestly don't have to time to follow what the others are doing. The design copcepts here are solely the ideas from user posings and with much discussion and thought of how to best integrate into our system. This is only the point zero release for this new concept.

I don't think I have flamed anyone on these posts. I have only tried to let you know how the decisions were made to present what we have and to make DSL as felixible as possible.

We are always open to suggestions for improvement.

Posted by roberts on May 17 2004,21:10

Duh! I finally get it!

You DON'T want to load deb or anything else automatically at boot time. This design goal is to use the cdrom as an extra storage of "maybe I want to load" things. No problem. Just don't store the dsl, debs or tar.gz or tgz in the root. Make a directory called optional and store them there. They won't be loaded at boot time.

You will still need the dsl-dpkg.dsl in the root to boot up with the capability to load these other things. No, you don't even need to do that. If you want a manual system to selectively load things from "optional" storage then put that dsl-dpkg.dsl into the optional directory too,

Then you feel you have the resources and desire to load one of them just use dpkg -i or with the one that need a writeable directory structure be sure to call /etc/init.d/mkwriteable and then use the tar command with the -C / to install at the / directory.

Am I missing somethings here. These are very different design goals.

But we can achieve the "only when I want to load something" "I only want to use the cdrom as extra storage for my files" with the existing infastructure of the current DSL 0.7

I was thinking more along the lines I don't want to have to remaster to make a "custom" DSL version for my particular setup.

Posted by Lighter on May 17 2004,21:24

Hey Roberts,

I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't saying that you were throwing flames. Well, you can remember that whenever a post about luit arises in this forum, it just creates a storm. I think this has made many a veteran DSL poster to go totally mum now after posting about luit. Even I don't have the guts to post under my registered name.

And ya, I know you are busy to look into others. And I have also found that the new distro is based on the discussions made in this forum. But then postings on this forum by users also reflects their openions while testing other distros. Here I think I remember someone had said how to use winiso to add additional packages to a cd and it was axactly how it was said in luit help files.

Well anyway, I was just trying to bring forward my views about RAM problems while making a custom CD.

But then I don't share your point about myDSL to create to custom CD to boot only a particular PC in mind. We should then better go for a HDD install if we arn't going to carry the myDSL cd along.

I hope you try to understand my point of view.

Posted by cbagger01 on May 17 2004,21:45

FYI,

When the discussions about custom DSL / DEB configurations started popping up around here, roberts was already well along with developing the mdDSL concept.

It just happened to be a coincidence that the subject of *.deb restoration was brought up right around the time that 0.7 was being OK'ed for release.

But enough about who should get credit for what. The myDSL concept fills a need and gives people the ability to download nicely prebuilt applications that seamlessly integrate with the distribution and require little interaction to get up and running.

I see the *.deb thing as a different situation entirely: Somebody wants to pop their favorite *.debs + dependencies on to a CD and then restore on bootup, but they don't want to turn it into a customized package that is fit for public consumption. Some people are already doing this today.

However, for programs that are useful to a large audience the proper thing to do is to build a *.dsl and then submit it for publishing so that others can easily use this *.dsl program in the future.

Posted by Grim on May 18 2004,11:31

Quote (Guest @ May 17 2004,15:24)

I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't saying that you were throwing flames. Well, you can remember that whenever a post about luit arises in this forum, it just creates a storm. I think this has made many a veteran DSL poster to go totally mum now after posting about luit. Even I don't have the guts to post under my registered name.

As far as I know, I was the only person to go rabid on someone when they brought up Luit in the forums.

<
John says he doesn't have a problem with people mentioning Luit. > If it doesn't bother the project leader, I'll choke back my own bile until I convulsively have a stroke or enter a peaceful state of catatonic acceptance.

Bottom line: Post about whatever you want, Rapidwea--I mean, uh, Lighter

Posted by clivesay on May 18 2004,12:39

Can't we all just get along? �

Grim - I didn't mind your Luit rant. Some of your posts really cracked me up!

I think having DSL, Feather, and Luit is a win for everyone.

DSL - for the 50mb purist who consider the business card �
� � � �CD a sacred symbol of anti-bloat <--is that a
� � � �word? �

Feather - A little bigger (<64mb). I few more frills for those
� � � � � � that don't want quite the barebones system of a
� � � � � � 50mb restriction. It's being debated to possibly go
� � � � � � to <128mb with larger USB drives becoming more
� � � � � � common and less expensive.

Luit - Gives people the opportunity to have a very small distro
� � � �with the feel of Windows.

I think many people in this forum are like me and try each one of these distros whenever a new release is announced. I think it is great that while these distros are very similar at the base, each one is carving out it's own niche. Personally, I like to combine the things I like about each one into my own "flavor".

I believe Robert when he says he's not paying much attention to what others are doing. His innovative ideas remind my of a good friend that is a very accomplished guitar player. I asked him what guitar players he listened to and he told me "none". He didn't care to hear other styles of playing because he was so focused on what he was doing.

I applaud all of the developers of these distros and am always waiting to try the next release!

Chris

Posted by SaidinUnleashed on May 19 2004,04:16

Quote (roberts @ May 17 2004,16:01)

Already completed is DSL 0.7.1.

please tell me you remembered to fix the p/s2 mouse problems from 0.7 ~_~ <-- praying.

i like the idea of the extentions, but what bothered me is that there was no way to stop them from loading on an older box. means that i have to carry around 2 CDs - one for modern, stout computers that can handle the .dsl's and one for older boxes that can't. kinda made me wonder if the king had fallen, if DSL had finally succumbed to the temptation of the bloat. but this news of a menu to pick and choose which extentions to load has (mostly) allieviated (sp?) my fears. thank you!!!

and i hope that DSL will continue to be THE standard for minimalist, desktop-oriented distros. it has breathed new life and functionality into the 486 and P1 boxes of the world. i now have 6 of the 8 P1 boxes that i own running ONLY DSL (HD-installed, of course) acting as a print server, a internet gateway, and 4 internet stations running firefox. i don't want to even think about what it would have cost me to buy new boxes that would run as quick on windoze as these little P1s do on DSL.

reminds me that i really need to donate at least 15 or 20 bucks...

Posted by hasty on May 19 2004,17:22

Roberts I agree totally with your idea of optional items to be installed at will.
I've never seen a 50mb CD so all my copies are burnt onto 700's and I hate the idea of wastage.

I just want a basic DSL which will run on all machines, but with the extra's available for the times
when I get to use a more powerful box.

Posted by ripcrd6 on May 27 2004,18:00

Quote (hasty @ May 19 2004,11:22)

Quote

I agree. I'm currently playing with remastering 0.7 using WinISO. I dropped a couple of items in the root CD directory (firefox, gnu-utils, ace of penguins) and put other .dsl files and my wireless module in a new directory called extra. It was a little slow to boot this way so I remastered again, moving the gnu-utils into the extra folder. It is still way too slow to boot on a PII and my laptop kept giving errors about being out of ram. I have 128MB. So then I thought it would be nice to have everything in a clickable menu, like the new control panel, which rocks by the way. Good to know the mydsl menu will be available in the 0.7.1 version. Is it avail. in 0.7? I didn't see it.

I just thought I would also mention that with 0.7, if you run the full enhance on the desktop, then the menu you get when you right click no longer has all the original options. I don't know if that is a bug or not. Also in the Knoppix directory the mkfloppy.bat and rawrite have been removed. Didn't know if this was intentional.

Did you guys get rid of the previous method of installing apps while running from livecd? Seems like in the 0.5.3 days you had flash on the menu and some other items. I may be thinking of flonix or knoppix. Maybe this is all being replaced by the myDSL stuff, which is fine. Hope you add a bookmark in the livecd iso for the mydslpage if that stuff can be downloaded and installed while running live.

I'm wondering when the kernel will get upgraded also. Still at 2.4.20 as far as I know. When and if this is done please post a big notice because I will have to recompile my wireless driver. I had to find an old version of knoppix 3.1 the last time.

One more thing since I'm ranting and offering all this free advice. ;-) I briefly looked at Mepis and the developer had all sorts of helpful bookmarks in the Konquerer browser. Links to the FAQ on his site, some Debian for Newbies sites, useful Howto links, streaming media, Linux news sites, other useful stuff. Wondering if this will/could be done in DSL?

Posted by ripcrd6 on May 28 2004,13:06

Just after I posted the above I decided that making a custom webpage with links is probably the easiest way to get the book marks. Then you can drop it in the root of the CD or an "extras" directory.