damnsmalllinux server edition

Forum: DSL Ideas and Suggestions
Topic: damnsmalllinux server edition
started by: ico2

Posted by ico2 on Aug. 28 2004,13:42

i am trying to make a dsl version specifically for being a web server, i will remove the games and most of the programs and replace them with stuff more relevent to web servers (ie: php etc) i will also include some tutorials and a revamped interface, some other things will be removed and it will simply be a process of answering a few qs and your server is going.

i am doing this for something to pass the time but if john and ke4nt want i can send it to them to go on the site.

the first version will hopefully be based on 0.8.

one thing i need to know before i can get going on this project:

ok, this is my assumption upon how dsl works, the file knoppix on the cd is mounted to /knoppix in the fs and folders within it are simlinked onto the ramdisk or the root of the fs, the ones in the ramdisk are softlinked(?) into the root of the fs for easy access by users and apps.
ok, so i want to be able to run a command or script that will unmount /knoppix (including changes made to simlinks of its subdirectories) to a file on my fat32 hd (without damaging any files already there of course) instead of just unmounting the version from the cd and discarding changes.

if someone can help me with this then i can start work on this project.

Posted by clacker on Aug. 29 2004,14:48

ico2, I've recently had some luck making remasters by using a method I read on the board in the "how to"s. You make a copy of the KNOPPIX directory, change the root directory to that copy, mount the proc in that new directory, and then add/remove programs with apt-get or whatever. Then you unmount proc, and get back to the origional root with a <CTRL-D>. Then use mkisofs like you normally would.

You can't use emelfm or scite when you're loading the new files, which is a drag, but you can move them to the copied KNOPPIX directory before you change root. Or do things the "hard core" way with a buch of cp and vi commands.

It's all spelled out in the second part of the first post of < ReMastering How To for DSL >

Posted by ico2 on Aug. 31 2004,13:48

thanks.

when i install my new hd (having difficulties) i will create a partition for the purpose of this kind of messing around.
it will be a week 1/2 before i get the ide adapter i need so in that time i will be downloading the stuff i need and writing (/asking for permission to borrow) some tutorials on various languages.

Posted by ypx on Sep. 02 2004,12:10

Perhaps you could take a look at < XAMPP >.
It may be a wonderfull addition to this distro as an extension.

my 2 cents...

Posted by AwPhuch on Nov. 01 2004,15:11

Have we made any headway with this

Perhaps a "server" version of DSL is needed

What about a command line only version (stripped down/no games/no frivilous stuff) and then have "server" type .dsl (apache.dsl(full version), samba.dsl, vsftpd.dsl, WEBMIN.dsl(I have tried and failed miserably)...yadda yadda) addons

Damn Small Server or DSLinux Server
This way you can build what you want as a server and since KNOPPIX/DSL detects most hardware and can use udma or the hdparm stuff it would make more sense to have a "light" server distro (this would be another 1st for DSL)

I am willing to assist in any way to get something like this done...I can test (I would like to learn how to remake the "LiveCD" part and would love to make some of my own MyDSL apps)I will assist in any way needed just PM me or email me and we can get the ball rolling on this...

Who is with me!?

Brian
AwPhuch

Posted by ico2 on Nov. 01 2004,15:27

currently (in between other stuff) i am working on deciding what software to include, sourcing the tutorials etc etc.
there will be a nice gui to set everything up, i am not sure whether to include stuff to make it a fileserver as well. i will see if i have space, i should once i have removed all the crap.
i am going to try and get everything set just running live asap, and then maybe make the iso, or maybe leave it until late.

Posted by AwPhuch on Nov. 01 2004,17:19

How many of you would like to see a stripped down "Server" only version of DSL?

I have seen tons of email and posts and requests for a simple "light" server that can run http, ftp, samba, and is easy to configure and run...

How would you like to see DSL have a new "release" as a server only (minimal distro with loadable MyDSL modules) to make it what you want...

Say you wanted a filesharing webserver (DSL with httpd and samba.dsl)

Here is what I would like to try to accomplish
1. Create a very minimal "core" command line release (no games, x emulator (or x programs[text editors, browsers, blah blah]) which would make an incredibly small iso (probably around 20-25 MEGS
2. Create "server" MyDSL apps (apache, samba, ftp, printer, WEBMIN [insert service here]) which could be loaded as needed/wanted
3. Create a easy to follow and understand howto/manual for the "server" DSL

Would this be feasable and useable or am I just dreaming???
Input would be nice peeps

Brian
AwPhuch

Posted by AwPhuch on Nov. 02 2004,20:09

Well...would you (the community) support something like this??

Brian
AwPhuch

Posted by Max on Nov. 02 2004,20:56

I was actually looking for something like this now. I had resigned myself to just loading Debian from scratch.

Specifically... apache, ossl??, mysql, php, perl, sendmail or postfix, samba.

Much of this sounds alot like what XAMPP is designed to do however.

Posted by Joat_Mone on Nov. 02 2004,23:59

I think this is a great idea, and I, for one, am looking foreward to this. Thought I like the monkey server, Apache has become the standard, and BetaFTPd has almost no instructions. The only request is to keep it as a live boot. That way you have a very secure server.
You might want to collect a few useful .php files (like a forum), and have them either alreay setup, or easy to install. Also maybe look for a backup utility. Incase someone grafitti's the website, you can restore it easily.
I would be willing to test this for you if you need help in that end.

Posted by clacker on Nov. 03 2004,02:23

AwPhuch, I think you can strip out all of the X windows stuff from dsl, but when I tried stripping out all of the "crap" I was left with 34 Megs, not 20-25. I might have missed stuff, but I tried to get rid of anything X based. I used dpkg --remove packagename to get rid of 26 packages. I know that some things didn't get removed because there were residual files all over the place that I stripped out by hand.

My second thought is that it's much easier to make a remaster than to make dsl files for all of your add-ins. You want Apache, mysql, & PHP from a live CD? No problem (well some tricky bits like you need to apt-get uucp even though it doesn't say you do). You want to make them into dsl files and load them on demand? Now that's hard. If you want a liveCD web server, it might be easiest to include all of the popular things that people ask for all the time (like Apache, mysql, and PHP) and let the core size be what it is. My guess is around 100 Megs, no X windows.

My third thought is security. People don't even have firewalls on the windows boxes. There are so many zombie machines out there were in the night of the living dead. And web sites get hacked all the time. Even if they can't destroy your data and system, they could still usurp it and run whatever they wanted. Send spam, attract attention, who knows what. There is a lot of danger in an "out of the box easy to startup web server."

Posted by AwPhuch on Nov. 03 2004,03:23

Quote (clacker @ Nov. 02 2004,21:23)

Well, if it is stripped down...this gives more room to make a good starting basis...

The addin MyDSL modules arent hard to add (winiso) is very nice....
if a WEBMIN module was added it makes configuring every aspect of linux just click and go! (have you seen it yet?)

rcfirewall is a very good module and its super tiny! I have tested it and it works nice!

Building a "core" release is the only logical way to go with DSL-server

Brian
AwPhuch

Posted by ico2 on Nov. 03 2004,09:47

ok, dsl can be cut down smaller and still have an xserver and wm and the tcl interpreter needed for the gui.
all the x apps except emelfm, scite and xterm can go, also a lot of command line stuff can go, there is no need for 90% of it, even some of the kernel modules can be dumped, a lot of stuff is not needed for a web server, pcmcia support for instance (i have to check to see if it can be removed easily) is useless as using a laptop as a webserver is a really daft idea

wireless support is questionable, but i think i will leave it in. i will try and set up so it automatically looks on your hd and finds a specific folder, symlinks it with the htdocs of whatever web server is used (probably monkey), so just pop the cd in and you are serving your site in a couple of minutes

Posted by AwPhuch on Nov. 03 2004,15:05

Quote (ico2 @ Nov. 03 2004,04:47)

Sweet...Can we have a "loadable module" to put the pcmica back in if needed
I would like to try to get "standard" server modules as well...this way DSL even though it is a light release is still viable in most respects...

How about this:
Lets say a guy has a 200Mhz machine with a 5 gig drive.
DSL-server "LiveCD"
3 partitions on drive (/dev/hda1 is a 100 meg "configuration save parition, /dev/hda2 is 128 meg swap, and hda3 is the rest)
He slaps in the DSL-server cd (with Apache.dsl and webmin.dsl and rcfirewall put on cd with winiso) and it boots up, he can now use webmin and save the apache config to the 100Meg config dir, along with any of his "changes" (such as custom IPTABLES rules, apache.conf settings, whatnot).
This way the bulk of the OS is on the "LiveCD" and his variable files (configs and whatnot are stored locally)
If we could get a solid WEBMIN.dsl module you wont need X...webmin is capable of doing 100% configuration of linux from a self generated webserver!
< http://www.webmin.com/standard.html > and it is quite light...and very easy to re-add removed modules or customise it to your needs...
This might help too
< http://www.webmin.com/screens.html >

Brian
AwPhuch

Posted by SaidinUnleashed on Nov. 03 2004,16:14

When this comes to fruition, I would like to help test it if that's okay.

-J.P.

Posted by AwPhuch on Nov. 03 2004,17:33

Absolutely...unfortunately I know jack about doing the hard stuff...however Im sure John/roberts/ke4nt1 are more than capable..

Like I said...my dream is to have a super minimal/command line only (webmin will be the configuration tool) release...then ppl can add the "server" packages as needed (the packages will have the webmin loaded modules built in witht them)...this way you have a minimal server distro without all the other useless crap involved...

Brian
AwPhuch

Posted by SaidinUnleashed on Nov. 04 2004,01:48

You might look at all the really nice documentation for making a live-linux cd over at linux-live.org (the Slax guys). They make it look easy.

-J.P.

Posted by ico2 on Nov. 04 2004,14:04

ok, this needs to be as complete as possible, with all the standard stuff, and only optional extras as .dsls, i am currently seeing if (with my minimal C++ skills) i can mess around with the fluxbox code to strip out all the junk, so it just manages windows, no menus, no bars, just the windows, then the tcl script provides the gui (in a window) (there will be a custom made daemon running to check if the main program is still runnning so that the user does not close it by accident, or i could always have a go at fixing fluxbox to not have a close or minimize button on specific windows. can anyone with greater c++ skill help me out with this?

ico2

Posted by AwPhuch on Nov. 04 2004,16:53

Quote (ico2 @ Nov. 04 2004,09:04)

So you want to keep the X-desktop?

Wont that be irrelivant in a server distro?

Brian
AwPhuch

Posted by SaidinUnleashed on Nov. 04 2004,18:20

If it were up to me, I'd rather have the space that the x server takes up for more utilities.

for gui's you could always use ncurses. it's nice and small.

-J.P.

Posted by AwPhuch on Nov. 04 2004,20:31

I agree...would a configuration program like linuxconf work?

< http://www.solucorp.qc.ca/linuxconf/ >

Demo < HERE >

Which makes more sence than trying to put X on it...

Brian
AwPhuch

Posted by SaidinUnleashed on Nov. 05 2004,05:18

I dunno, it seems a little clunky to me.

Posted by ico2 on Nov. 05 2004,13:58

space shouldn't be that much of a problem if we don't use apache, there should be plenty of space for everything, including an xserver and a nice gui.

Posted by SaidinUnleashed(NLI) on Nov. 05 2004,16:09

But I think people are wanting Apache, over monkey. Apache is a lot nicer.

Are we still trying to keep it <=50mb?

Posted by AwPhuch on Nov. 05 2004,16:49

The "core" should always remain smaller than 50Megs per Johns designation...however, the addon MyDSL modules which will allow you to customise what you want (webserver, fileserver, mailserver, ircserver, ***insert server request here***) should be able to be -plug n play/configureable- such as the Apache.dsl will have all the requirements for apache, and have built into it a way to either have one of those WEBGUI configurator or the ncurses or whatnot, then have the ability to create a config file (with mount commands, partition information (for files on the harddrive), settings)that can then either be burned to a cd along with the "core" release, or placed inside a small config partition before the main data partition...thus the DSL-server can be completely run from CD

or, the "core" dsl is cd bootable, it boots, sees the conf file in the 100meg /config parition and then rips along...kind of like doing a restore /dev/hda1 at boot..but its automatic

This way its much easier to update the MyDSL packages if needed, alter the config files and reduce the number of CD's you have to burn.

I guess this way the DSL cd doesnt change much from its original form, it just looks for a "DSL-server.sh" file on /dev/hda1 if it sees it then it starts itself in the server mode and runs the MyDSL apps from the /dev/hda1 partition.

Did I confuse you guys?

Brian
AwPhuch

Posted by AwPhuch on Nov. 05 2004,17:16

Perhaps we should all consult one another...
It seems we want to do this but have different ideas on what we want and what it should do.

If the developer/testers can all agree on what can/should be done work can go forward...as it stands we all want something different and cant agree on how it should be done.

My ideas:
1. Complete rework of the DSL system, stripping all but "core" needed files with a WEBGUI configuration option
A. MyDSL apps can be burned to iso image to make server
B. Config file burned to iso to make OS completely CD bootable
C. No X server loaded so memory usage of the RAMDRIVE is saved for "server processing"
D. All OS programs run from CD, thus saving entire data drive for data, no need to clutter with OS programs
E. In the event of a crash a reboot will restore DSL-server back to original working condition

2. Dual Purpose "Standard" practically unmodified DSL system that using scripting will determine if DSL boots as desktop release or "server" distro
A. config file/restore file in a pre-determined location (/dev/hda1)
B. MyDSL apps reside in smaller partition on HD (cant have server without a HD)that script will call up and load and use config file to start
C. DSL sees config file and instead of booting into "Desktop Mode" drops into a command line only mode with WEBGUI configurator (either built in or required MyDSL app) which makes customizing/changing alot easier (and reduces having to change stock DSL iso from the original)
D. Now DSL has "true" multi-purpose functionality since the "DSL-server" and "Desktop" distros are practically the same, just scripting changes its functions
E. Easier to implement..."Core" DSL doesnt change much from original except a few simple init scripts

I see it either way there has to be a "small" partition located on the harddrive to keep the settings/configuration/logs of the server daemons

Brian
AwPhuch

Posted by SaidinUnleashed on Nov. 05 2004,20:12

Your idea #1 sounds like what I was thinking of.

There definately needs to be the ability to use the hard disk for bulk storage of html files, inames, apps being ftp'd, etc.

The OS runs completely off of the cd, in ram perhaps, but everything else lives on the hdd.

So that when someone does break in and mess with stuff you only have to reboot to be 90% back in business.

Idea #2 is interesting, though. And it would be easier to keep DSL consolidated in a single ISO, if the new bootscripts (that would have to be made) were to be incorporated into DSL proper.

We could even come up with a "Install DSL Server Edition to Hard Disk" script to set up the server and filesystem. You could choose what servers you want to install (Apache, FTP, Telnet, etc), the script would download and unpack the appropriate .dsl(s) from the repository, and set up whatever file that the new boot script would be looking for.

We could even add another "cheat code" for boot time. Want classic DSL? It's the same as always. Want to fire up your server? Boot "dsl server". The toram option would probably still be good, too.

Although I see the good points to both of these, and personally, I like idea 1 better, idea 2 will be a lot easier to implement. And it will keep DSL all together.

-J.P.

Posted by ico2 on Nov. 06 2004,15:39

my plan:
a complete remaster of the cd, rip out junk and replace with useful stuff, including if there is space: apache, on bootup it mounts all the avaliable hd/usb key partitions as read only and looks for a config file in the root of them, this tells it to use this partition, all others are unmounted and the partition with the config file is mounted rw. /htdocs in the partition is symlinked with that of the webserver being used and where possible an internet connection and network card are started, dhcp is searched for on the lan and if found used, if not then a default (although not conflicting with anything else) ip is assigned. the server then begins serving. the config file can be written to contain a name and password for a dyndns.org to be notified of a new ip address, if so then the script notifies dyndns, if not then it doesn't.
before the user knows what is happening X starts and presents a friendly configuration gui, to change and edit anything the user wants and change settings in the config file and/or create a config file on another partition and some other stuff.
this should be a very very very unique distro if i can get it going in under 50mb.

Posted by PhrozenFear on Feb. 05 2005,06:03

It sounds excellent, and almost exactly what I've been looking for.

I really like (and need) the idea of earlier, that's just a core with Apache, MySQL, & PHP from the CD. I'll make my own script if need be to link up the SQL DB from somewhere that's got RW perms, but I just need something at the moment that's straightforward and simple, does Apache, MySQL and PHP, no GUI.

And the sooner I can figure this out, the sooner I can have my father off my ass.

Anyone got a prototype I can test / work on / help build ?

Even if it's over the 50 MB limit, that's what they have 700MB CD's for - make a big 'un, then simplify it down to what you want, either to the mini CD's (the 181MB ones) or the credcard ones.

Besides, who really burns DSL to a credcard CD ? Most burn 'em to a full-size, and the rest mount 'em up or put 'em on the mini's.

Posted by cbagger01 on Feb. 05 2005,07:05

I do.

I still have about 20 left from my last purchase and I intend to use most of them for burning the base DSL iso.

Posted by tronik on Feb. 05 2005,15:27

Surprised this thread is still alive, but dissapointed that more work hasn't brought it forward. I will provide a stable environment to develop on DSL SE if we want to actually begin development on it. Su,AwP,ico, Give me two motions for it and in a day or two we will have a basis for it. ;) I think its time server edition got off the ground.

Posted by PhrozenFear on Feb. 09 2005,06:49

*gives a motion to go ahead*

Posted by AwPhuch on Feb. 10 2005,03:51

Please do...the more people we have working on this the better...even a "beta" release is better than nothing...and Im sure once we get this sukka started more and more people will jump on board...DSL has gotten so freeking much momentum going its a shame to not try something a bit different, plus with the MyDSL stuff you could build MyDSL server apps as well...just hotplug and go!

What do you think about that?

Brian
AwPhuch

Posted by PhrozenFear on Feb. 10 2005,06:25

I need this server edition for a project I'm working on in class. So the sooner the better, or else I'm gonna just have to do my own remaster - take it, mount it, apt-get it, then umount and build it, which I'm NOT looking forward to doing....

Please and thanks.

Posted by tronik on Feb. 10 2005,15:03

ok..the host environment is setup.
Its running in ramdisk, so there should be no way to SCREW it up.
there is 4 gigs of static storage available. if it does screw up, then we'll just reset the machine...

it runs dsl 0.9.3 so you should have all the things necessary to remaster at your disposal. access works like this:

Please PM me here or email me at filadewd [at] yahoo.com if you would like to help...For the most part, you must be active in the DSL community and i will judge access based on that ;p and what the others in the DSL community think about you.

You can find me and many others on IRC most of the time at irc.freenode.net in #damnsmalllinux

contact me ;) and we can get to work on this thing.

Posted by ico2 on Feb. 10 2005,16:53

yawn, i am v busy ATM but have next week off so i may do some remastering then

Posted by AwPhuch on Feb. 11 2005,02:42

What sort of interface would we be able to use...I dont think a server release of DSL should include X, but I do think it should have some sort of easy to use user interface...im very very fond of webmin and its ability to control multiple aspects of linux easily with quick and easy to load plugins...

Brian
AwPhuch

Posted by SaidinUnleashed on Feb. 11 2005,03:22

Easy to use interface?

I nominate Bash!

^_^

Posted by tronik on Feb. 11 2005,05:37

hi..i'd kind of like to get the people who will be working on the project all in one place, row, so if you could send me an email i'll give you the URL to the developer forum (just for developers and where we can keep track of changes/what each other are doing.) the system is multiuser, so many people can be working on it at once, doing differnt things, whatever...we can talk more about it there. i think the forums here are busy enough without us adding to the jumble, plus on the developers forums we have it split into different sections like booting, init, default services, userland, kernel, blah blah blah...

anyway...fire me a PM if you'd like to get started. the host has been up and waiting on people to start working on it and doing things ;( and it has been lonely all day!!!

Posted by newOldUser on Feb. 18 2005,20:56

Any updates on this project?

Has a direction been picked?

Will you make add-on DSL modules or will it be a complete product(like an ISO to download)?
Will it be Linux Apache MySQL Php? or smaller modules?
Are you trying to keep it below the 50meg limit?
Do you have a minimum hardware configuration in mind?

just curious,
thanks

Posted by AwPhuch on Feb. 19 2005,01:39

Still in the works bud...Perhaps if people were to rattle the "Creators" cage, he might offer his excellent expertise to this "side" project...which I believe would make DSL the next major OS contender!

But thats only my $0.02

Brian
AwPhuch

Posted by tronik on Feb. 19 2005,01:43

I never got a go ahead from enough people to put the machine online that I was going to put online for group work. I need capable people who know what they're doing in order for me to put the machine online for them to use to actually make DSL server Edition. Read "commitment."

Here are some basics I've put together:
DSL server edition will attempt to maintain a less than 180 meg (for mini-cds, not business card CDs) size limit, but if not just a standard ISO size...It will still be 'lean'. It wont have X -you dont need X. It wont . Chances of this size are pretty doable. I think we would include the basic servers that come with DSL, but alternatively a full apache, and thttpd in addition to the small webserver which comes with dsl, monkey i believe? but i've never used it. a small mail server, dns server, configurable ftp server (vhosts/etc)...

A backup device to store the servers settings on would be integral obviously, so the server would need either floppy or some other form of external storage. unless you remaster and whatnot...but a static place in the tree for all configs would be nice.

hdinstall, sure, but if you're going to hdinstall you can pretty much install your own stuff. or use a larger distribution...

Key here would be maintenance. Thats why there need to be dedicated people. When you take on a server distribution project you're taking on all of the responsibilities of keeping it up to date, secure, and uncrack/hack/dosable...that means a new release anytime an exploit is found...I dont have the time for that. Otherwise, it'd just be a stale DSL, stripped of all the niceties, with a couple of servers installed...

And that as they say, is all the rave.

Posted by Rocky on Feb. 28 2005,02:56

I would love to see this project completed so I could install it of a CF Card on an IDE convertor on the primary IDE, then slave a 80 gig Hard Drive for File Storage. Any one have any ideas?

Posted by PhrozenFear on Feb. 28 2005,04:48

First off, why would you need 80 gigs of storage, unless you're putting this thing out on the mainstream web for major amounts of usage ? That's just overkill.

Myself, I just got my PC working like I should, so now I can focus on getting my portion of this project set up, which is to learn how to remaster and remove X.

Posted by tronik on Mar. 01 2005,05:58

well... I have put up a new DSL development machine (apollo) for people to use to do things for DSL...pm me if interested...we can work on DSLse ;p..if anyones interested...remember, its a multi-user machine, so we can all collaborate on things...

Posted by ico2 on Mar. 08 2005,19:14

read my new post hehe, i think i can get it into 50mb ("think").

i have got some work done on it and i think i can now make it work. tell me (in the new post please as this one is getting too large to read through) what you would like to see/what you can contribute. good c programmers are encouraged to come forward (people good at command line based guis) i can do most stuff, but the config gui will take me some time unless i get help.

i will try to upload a version (may not be 50mb yet) to an ftp somewhere for people to criticise soon. read my new post for details