The future of Damn Small Linux

Forum: DSL Ideas and Suggestions
Topic: The future of Damn Small Linux
started by: Daniele

Posted by Daniele on Jan. 05 2004,00:01

Please don't take this as flame or criticism at all.
I don't have a deep knowledge of the command line, even if I use it when necessary, but I believe that I have a pretty good insight of Linux distros.
I have seen them coming, going, being very popular and then losing their popularity and even disappearing...Just an example? Jamd Linux. It was very popular, but now it is risking to disappear, because it is based on Red Hat 9, the last release was in May 2003 and nobody knows what happened to the mantainer.
The above was of course only an example, because John releases and updates very often.
Now, what I am wondering is: what makes the difference between a 'fashionable' distro and a distro which is here to stay?
A distro which is here to stay is IMHO one used by enough people as their daily main operating system.
Is that the case with DSL? I can't be sure about that, but what I know is that I have never seen anybody, in any forum except for this one, advising new users DSL as their first or main distro, EXCEPT in the case of people looking for a distro for very old hardware.
So what would guarantee that DSL is not just a temporary fashion, IMHO?
FLEXIBILITY ABOUT ITS SIZE
50 MB is very 'cool', but not enough by far to make it a comfortable OS for daily use, IMHO
Maybe my fellow users here and even John will tell me that they don't care, in which case I apologize for this post.
As I said in another occasion, there is a big gap in the niche of distros which give you a nice and yet fully featured install of about 200 MBs.
There are Vector and Morphix, but outside their followers they don't seem to attract many people, for various reasons.
Of course you can perform a custom lightweight install with any 'mainstream' distro, but anybody who has ever tried that with a rpm distro knows what a pain that is.
Debian is much better suited, IMHO, but a 'pure' Debian install is not the easiest thing in the world...
Besides, it's much better to have a distro where the best apps, considering the size, have already been chosen by somebody very experienced.
Well, sorry for this long post and I am hoping to hear your opinions
Daniele

Posted by cbagger01 on Jan. 05 2004,01:09

FYI,

50MB is the size of the Compressed filesystem.

If you were to uncompress DSL (hard disk install), it would fall roughly in line with a 200MB distro in terms of functionality and space.

One difference between DSL and other distros is that because it is Debian-based, it will always be upgradable even if the people who work on it were to suddenly abandon the project. Other than the non-standard XWindows system (and in this case non-standard = good, especially if you own an old computer), it should be pretty easy to upgrade just about any part of DSL. And if you really wanted to upgrade XWindows, you could always install the standard XFree86 Debian package and then even that part of the distro would be upgradable.

I guess that what I am trying to say is:

In my opinion, it really doesn't matter whether DSL is considered "fashionable" or not. In fact, since DSL was originally supposed to be a business card live CD, it's growth as a hard disk based traditional distribution is an unintended bonus.

So, based on the project's goals it is already a success even if no future changes are ever made to DSL. For example, I haven't seen much new output from the creators of the 'ls' command but I wouldn't interpret this inactivity as a failure.

Not meant to be criticism. Just my $0.02

Posted by Daniele on Jan. 05 2004,01:25

Quote (cbagger01 @ Jan. 04 2004,20:09)

Not meant to be criticism. Just my $0.02

Thanks for your opinion!

Posted by CappyCaffeine on Jan. 05 2004,02:35

A very thoughtful post, Daniele!

It is a very good question since most Linux users realize but sometimes refuse to admit, standardization is what makes a product continue to grow and not die a depressing death. Standards for cars, TVs, Radios, VCRs (but Beta was betta!) and of course, Windows have kept their longevity unless a superior technology comes to pass.. VCRs are dying due to DVD, analog TV will give way to Digital, etc.

Now we have Linux whose main problem to date is what it "should" be. Desktop, Server, Workstation, what the? Unfortunatly most jacks-of-all-trades become masters of none.
There are some excellent efforts to try and specialize distributions, and although many are saddened by RedHat's departure from consumer products, their business model is sound. Concentrate on one product (Enterprise level OS) and make it the best.

Enthusiaist support is admirable, but most people still need to work a day job. John is doing an incredible job on DSL, but can that momentum be continued indefinitely? Doubtful, though I hope he does!

I agree that the continuation of a distro is dependent on the number of users and their feedback (monetarily or otherwise) to the creators/authors.

One such distribution that seems to be what you feel is a niche product is Peanut Linux which is still a favorite and I had running for 2 years on a work machine, before we had to upgrade all machines to WinXP Pro because of new software.

Interestingly, the server uses Redhat 7.3 with a specialized kernel, but we access the files via a WinXP client. Best of both worlds? Probably. Hopefully, we'll see.

So will DSL last? There are a lot of "dead" computers out there that would be perfectly usable with DSL for the most common applications used. Internet surfing, email, word processing, and accounting packages DO NOT NEED a Pentium 4 3.2 GHz with 1 GB of memory and 250 GB of hard drive space.

However, Home Theater PCs, editing video and burning DVDs do need more horsepower.. I believe that the big guns like Sony, Matushita, RCA and good ole GE are probably developing closed boxes that do all of the above with the same flexibility as contemporary operating systems. Gateway is already testing the waters of computer/consumer electronics convergence and their product line looks pretty impressive.

I can forsee a fork between a basic system that may eventually replace the telephone! Email, voice, messaging, and daily mundane tasks like paying bills and managing finances on one type of machine versus "entertainment" units for gaming and Digital photography/video applications on another.

Tweaking may become less commonplace. 40 years ago, teenagers could become gearheads and tinker with their cars. Now, you can't do much servicing on your own car without specific training. Computers will probably go the same route in the next 40 years if not sooner.

So enjoy the distros while you can since they may all be doomed! (I should get some flames for this post!

Cappy

Posted by Daniele on Jan. 05 2004,03:45

Quote (CappyCaffeine @ Jan. 04 2004,21:35)

A very thoughtful post, Daniele!

Cappy

So is yours and I don't have very much to add

Except that if John or somebody else was ever to make such a distro, I'd like to see some of the apps which make me proud of being a linux user: Open Office, Evolution (is it possible? how many Gnome libraries would it need?) K3b (how many Kde libraries needed?), Xfce4, Tuxracer (I am particularly fascinated by it, sorry)....
Such a distro could be highly successful. Not bloated at all, and yet offering the very best of linux.

Posted by CappyCaffeine on Jan. 05 2004,04:20

Have you tried installing OpenOffice or Evolution with apt-get? I have not yet, but it should be able to tell you what dependencies need to be fulfilled. Some cannot be done since DSL is based on Knoppix, not really Debian 100%.

Bonzai Linux is a small distribution that is 100% Debian, therefore you should be able to install those additional packages via apt-get or synaptic.

Let me know if you try it and how it works.

Cappy.

Posted by Daniele on Jan. 05 2004,04:32

Quote (CappyCaffeine @ Jan. 04 2004,23:20)

Do you know what I was considering before reading your last post? I'll try with Libranet.
I'll perform a minimal graphic install and then add the apps that I mentioned above. I'll let you know how it goes

Posted by Del on Jan. 05 2004,05:46

I'm still running RedHat 8 on my 'duty' machine, but I'm still finding myself tired of it's bloat.
I found DSL a couple weeks back (okay, maybe three), and basically fell in love. I think it's
going to be a great base system for me to build it to exactly what I want. It's small, runs quick
and it isn't loaded with a bunch of daemons I don't need or want. It also auto-detected every
thing on my box, even sound worked right off the bat. It's easier (read faster) to get running
than things like Linux From Scratch (or whatever it's called now), and still gives me the feeling
of having set things up as I want them, instead of what RedHat or someone thinks I want them.

Now for the fun part. Because it's light and simple, I can easily remaster my changes into an .iso,
and even distribute that as my own distro, if I wanted to (ooh, Delinux?). Granted, legally I could
do that with RedHat or any other distro as well, but I'd probably have to invest countless hours
and thousands of dollars on illegal drugs to figure out the intricacies of RPM and RH's
'layout', even though I've been using RedHat for nigh onto 7 years. To contrast, I figured it
out on DSL in an evening, and didn't add any new addictive (or illegal) habits.

So, after all this rambling, I guess my point is simply that DSL will survive just fine, even if
it's called DSL, Delinux (hhmmm... still thinkin about that) or whatever. After all, it's still just
a derivative of Knoppix. Things like Delinux (I gotta quit saying that, I'm liking this too much)
will fill the void between the 50Mb DSLs and the 650Mb Knoppixes that are light, run quick,
have Evolution and a real browser, but no Gnome+KDE+this+that+theother bloat.

Okay, gonna shut up now

-edit == spelling-

-edit 2 == update-
btw, to install Evolution it requires re-editing /etc/apt/sources.list to the stable branch. Then 21.2 Mb of downloads requiring 62.6 Mb of install space.

Posted by Daniele on Jan. 05 2004,23:13

Del,

The main point of your post seems to me that one could easily remaster DSL.
Fair enough, I am not going to argue about that..
My point is though that by far the great majority of users are not going to do that. They'll choose a distro which best suits their needs. Please see my next post for further clarification of what I mean.
And BTW, you'd better choose a different name for your distro, as 'Delinux' sounds to similar to an existing one: DeliLinux

Posted by Daniele on Jan. 05 2004,23:26

Quote (CappyCaffeine @ Jan. 04 2004,23:20)

Let me know if you try it and how it works.

Cappy.

I did it, exactly as described, with Libranet. Plus I added Firebird and Opera.
I am using Icewm and Xfce4 as my desktop environments.
I absolutely love it.
True, it has taken 1.5 Gig of HD, but with 80 Gig available that is not a problem.
If I were a developer I'd also make my own distro: can you imagine? Lean on resources and yet a collection of some of the most loved linux apps...

Posted by Del on Jan. 06 2004,05:23

Daniele,
You're right, that was the basis of my post. What I mean by it though, is that DSL could end up
being several distros, thus being able to be 'just right' for anyone. That way, it's not stuck as
just a "fashionable distro", it could actually be a useable, long-term distro.

If it stays as a "50 Mb cause it's too cool not to do", then yes, it's fashionable. But as long as
there are people that use it, tweak it, and possibly remaster and redistribute it, it's here to stay.

Which I believe was your original query, whether DSL was cool for now, or if it would have any
longevity. The answer is totally up to John and his user base. If it's to be a big-name, bring
Linux to the masses product, it'll be because people like you and I told our friends and brought
John a larger following. Eventually maybe someone with some money burning a hole in their
pocket will help make it a big name.

Okay, I'm rambling. Shutting up now

Posted by Daniele on Jan. 06 2004,06:01

Quote (Del @ Jan. 06 2004,00:23)

Basically what you are saying is that DSL could end up like Knoppix, being 'many distros'
I like that, it is exactly what I wanted to hear

Posted by enthusi on Jan. 06 2004,10:16

Hi there,
It is still damn early here but I just want to add my opinion on that topic

I'm using Linux in general for about 4 years. It totally replaced my win about two years ago. And I admit I did not leave win because everything was easier with Linux. Maybe not even everything was better in the beginning but I think it's far better to live it Linux then with win.
About that 50MB-size border of DSL - I think its great.
It tweaks the apps in it! That may sound paradox but I think whenver tehre are limits it grows from within!
(I am a great great fan of the un4gettable (unbeaten) C64 which is still a pretty nice example of it)
DSL has or at least can have everything one does indeed need.
I have lots of older hardware - some of them too old even for any X but those who can have DSL. It rocks. When I visit my parents on xmas a dsl is waiting on a 100Mhz and on a 66Mhz -system (the latter sucks a bit I admit ;-). On partys a PI-200Mhz plays mp3s and none of those win-murons would ever guess that it is such a "slow" machine---
Knoppix is wonderful. It looks great. I'd install it if I had a super-new pc but I dont and why should I?

As for the futre: I wont give away old hardware (as I never gave away those c64s).

Some of them tak eover stupid functions as just playing mp3s ot beeiong a router, server whatever but they still are powerful "beeings".

Maybe you wanna start coding in assembler and you may see better what I mean.

What could be an option for you (and others, though I think it's out of this project a I see it) is a secondary these-packages-work-fine-with-dsl-and-people-like-them-CD with selected Debian-packages.
Of course a apt-get-script would do it, too but I for example dont have DSL with internetconnection and have to put things on cd or floppy first anyway...

And now for a last point. I think one of my first one was that DSL lives as long as its fun to tweak it and learn how things work. I much rather mess arround with 200 MB than with 2 Gigs... Well, the last point ;-)
I think beside its socalled "limits" (I'm open for discussion if old apss that do the job perfectly well are worse than new ones...) I think DSL is very good for beginners, too!
This forum e.g. seems very openminded to first-user-questions!
And I have "brought" people DSL twice by now.
There are more people that could use linux and especially linux as many think...
One of them is a (quite interessting, beautyful (thanks JOHN!)) woman :-)
She's got a 233Mhz-machine and a crappy, lame 98 running on it. She doesnt care for big office stuff since that wont run anyway.
So what is wanted is a reasonable OS and by the way its always nice to be totally legal with everything which might be hard otherwise.

I think there are many users that just want stuff to work out.. No Powerusers that want the latest OS at any cost but that care either for efficiency (like me) or do not care at all! (like many mostly female stuents I know that just have an old pc lying arround and dont have fun with it).

Soon (I hope), Im going to pos a small tutorial on TCC in DSL with some small easy-to-understand examples for I think DSL is also great to begin other stuff with.... html, C and so on...

Well, maybe this post got to long... Forgive my enthusiasm ;)

Hoping to see many of you for a long time,

Enthusi

Posted by ou_ryperd on Jan. 06 2004,10:52

[QUOTE]What could be an option for you (and others, though I think it's out of this project a I see it) is a secondary these-packages-work-fine-with-dsl-and-people-like-them-CD with selected Debian-packages.

Very good idea, if there is anyone that can spend time on it.

[QUOTE]Soon (I hope), Im going to pos a small tutorial on TCC in DSL with some small easy-to-understand �examples for I think DSL is also great to begin other stuff with.... html, C and so on...

Looking forward to it.

Posted by guido on Jan. 06 2004,21:31

Hi,

This is my personal opinion !

First of all...
In my job (ICT for kids from 3 to 12 years old ) I see a stupid situation.
Many pc's from 486 to PIV (150 => 200)
Many memory difference from 16 mb to 256 mb ram
Many users with no knowledge of computers and / or software
Many software with no license ( let me say 90% and even more...)

NO MONEY to upgrade all this stuff to an legal Microsoft XP/win2000 situation...

So i was a little bit frustrated .... Then i found searching on the web a DSL distro.

With DSL i can use about 90 % of all the equipment. Most common problem is the machines with 16 mb ram.

On this moment my evaluation of DSL is that is'n 100 % perfect , but it's usable. Even more then usable if i make the following dissision :
In education i must give the kids the possibility to work with program's and computers .

Not to work with programnames but to do the things you can do for example :
- with every browser.... visit websites
- with every textprocessor ...writing letters
- with every filemanager ... handeling files to a diskette...
etc...

So if i see that all the work of John give me the possibility to do this jobs than i think that DSL will have a good reason to develop.

Maybe the 50 mb is for some people a problem but in my possistion it's wonderfull.... a P I 200 MHZ / 32mb ram is with DSL a GREAT computer that will give the kids the possibility to do there tasks.

But the work isn't done...
First of all , normaly i'm speaking dutch , the kids (there are about 1100 in my schools) also. So i must seak a possibility to translate the english software in dutch. I think that this must be possible.

After that i must learn the teachers that they must do jobs and not working with programnames.

And when all this work is done i will have a great job.... Giving education to the kids.

You can't believe that i will now work 36 houres a week to try that all the windows stuff wil work ... antivirus ...updates... etc...

I may forgot it ! A CD-ROM is 100 % virus free and needs no update...

And when it need an update it's easy to do. 1 Master CD and 150 Copy CD's
And every update wil give new educational software.

So i'm happy with the work that John has done .

So Thanks John !

Regards from the dutch part of Belgium,
Guido

Posted by Daniele on Jan. 06 2004,22:14

Quote (guido @ Jan. 06 2004,16:31)

But the work isn't done...
First of all , normaly i'm speaking dutch , the kids (there are about 1100 in my schools) also. So i must seak a possibility to translate the english software in dutch. I think that this must be possible.

Yes, it can be done, there is a Debian command which changes the default language of your system. I don't remember it out of my mind, but it shouldn't be too difficult to find.
However the compatibilty of DSL with Debian is a bit dubious to say the least.

On a lighter, offtopic note, let me say that at your school they must be a bit mean or badly organized to use such ancient hardware.
Here in the UK they collected money for school computers with the help of all major supermarkets and they were quite successful.

Posted by clivesay on Jan. 07 2004,04:17

Guido -
It would be great for you and I to correspond. I have the posts in the User Feedback area "Not For Profit Needs Help". I am attempting to refurbish exactly the type of computers you are speaking of for children. There are still a TON of those machines out there.
I have a huge learning curve being new to Linux but I have had the most success with DSL. I still am struggling but that is from my lack of experience and not because of the distro. I think DSL has huge potential. The great thing has been that people like CappyCaffeine and Cbagger01 haunt these posts and give out alot of advise. They have been very helpful to me!

John - Keep it up!!

Chris

Posted by cbagger01 on Jan. 07 2004,07:04

Guido,

With a few exceptions, most of the software provided in DSL has been translated into different languages by others. The Dutch language is a possibility, but I am sure that French & German are more common.

However, for non-English speaking users one of the problems with a distro like DSL is that some of the "locale" translations are likely removed from the CD in order to fit all of the software into a 50MB mini-CD (Business-Card Style) format.

It is possible to manually restore translation files with some amount of effort.

Another option would be to look for a similar project like DSL (liveCD) but still supplies the international language support files. I believe that the Morphix Light GUI liveCD may support this.

As for boot time paramters, for knoppix you would try:

Boot: knoppix lang=nl

I doubt that this would work with DSL but you could try.

However, for Morphix, you would type:

Boot: morphix lang=nl

and it may just work. There is a FAQ on the Morphix web site that explains a procedure on how to change the default language for the *.iso liveCD.

Good Luck.

Posted by guido on Jan. 07 2004,18:23

<knip>
Boot: � �knoppix lang=nl
</knip>

The problem is that it must be knoppix lqng=be

(lqng on a azerty keyboard

not lang that gives lqng)
And to explane this to teachers .... is to difficult.

BE becouse we use another keyboard layout in The dutch part of Belgium than in the Netherlands. (azertyuiop)

The 486 pc's are not more than 5% but the most of the used pc's are p1 (approx 50%) and PII (approx 25%)

The problem with other linux distro's is that they need more than 128 Mb of ram . And the computers have for 50 % not more than 64 mb.

I'm one of the life time lindows (www.lindows.com) members , but then i need minimum a 800 Mhz and 128 mb ram computer.

So that is'n also a usable school solution.

That's the main rerason that i prefere DSL => The RAM must be more than 32 ( 16 ? not tryed).

Other linux stuff �that i use (and prefere) :
www.fli4l.de (www.fli4l.be dutch version) for router
www.eisfair.org (www.eisfair.be dutch version ) for server.
Both from the same development team.

I have not the same knowledge in linux than in DOS (nice OS !) but it will grown. Step by step.... like in the good old day's with DOS.

Regards ,
Guido

Posted by cbagger01 on Jan. 07 2004,19:04

You may be able to get away with changing the language to your desired choice and still assign a different keyboard map to your Xwindows.

Try using the "Search" button above and search the entire DSL user board for keyword "keyboard". �Be sure to search for all messages since "the beginning". I am confident that this has been discussed in previous posts.

As for Knoppix/Morphix/DSL lang support, knoppix did not add support for "lang=be" until version 3.2-2003-03-26 �and I think that the DSL distribution was based on an older version of Knoppix.

This may also be true for Morphix LightGUI disk.

Maybe you should try this:

(1) Download latest Knoppix *.iso image and burn a new CD-R
(2) Boot the CD, or boot Knoppix using the boot floppy if your computer BIOS does not support booting from a CDROM drive.
(3) Choose boot command line options similar to this:
Boot: � knoppix lang=be keyboard=be xkeyboard=be desktop=fluxbox

You may be able to get proper language and keyboard map and a low-resource window manager (fluxbox) to work with a slower computer and limited memory. Then be sure to only start up the applications that work well with limited memory (the programs that are included on the DSL CD)

Hopefully, Morphix LightGUI will support this and then you won't need to deal with all of the additional heavy applications and window managers that are supplied on the full Knoppix CD.

Good Luck.

Posted by peter on Jan. 08 2004,10:28

Interesting....... Daniele, you clearly have a passion for Linux.

Have you looked at the how-to articles onthe Morphix website?

I don't think you have to be a developer to put together a "custom" Morphix. I bet you could do it.... ;)

The instructions don't look too daunting and it looks like a good learning experience to me.

I'm considering trying it myself... and I agree that the middle ground, say something that would fit on a 180mb disk and have a few more apps, is a bit hard to find - although the Morph "light gui" is a good example of the genre.

Posted by Daniele on Jan. 09 2004,00:21

Quote (peter @ Jan. 08 2004,05:28)

Interesting....... Daniele, you clearly have a passion for Linux.

Thanks for the nice compliment.
Indeed I'd like to take my knowledge of linux a bit further. I'd even like to learn programming, but I don't know when, as at the moment I should do things which are more important both for me and my family.

Posted by peter on Jan. 13 2004,01:16

Of course- you and your family first!

I think this looks interesting- some basic shell scripting in a format that takes you step by step. I'm bookmaking it. Scripting can save time rather than waste it! Here's the link-

< http://tutorials.yourlinux.com/tutorial1.php >

Worth a look, even if you don't take it any further.....

Posted by Daniele on Jan. 14 2004,00:48

Quote (peter @ Jan. 12 2004,20:16)

I think this looks interesting- some basic shell scripting in a format that takes you step by step. I'm bookmaking it. Scripting can save time rather than waste it! Here's the link-

< http://tutorials.yourlinux.com/tutorial1.php >

Worth a look, even if you don't take it any further.....

Thanks!

I believe I'll print it, it sounds very interesting.