My ideas and suggestions for DSL
Forum: DSL Ideas and Suggestions
Topic: My ideas and suggestions for DSL
started by: lub997
Posted by lub997 on Sep. 29 2005,07:01
I have a number of ideas and suggestions for DSL, but would first like to say that even as what it is now, DSL is a great distribution and without it I would not be able to do modern things like running Firefox through a wireless card on my ancient laptop, so DSL is already a lifesaver for old hardware, but there are a number of things I have run into with it that I think not only could, but should be improved.1) Update the drivers. DSL comes with nearly every driver known to man, but the problem is some of them are out of date. For instance, the MadWiFI Atheros driver module is out of date, and I had to recompile it to use it with my wireless card because I have revision C of my wireless card, and when the DSL MadWiFi module was compiled, revision C of my card was not supported yet, but now it is. I suspect I am not the only person who has run into this problem, but others have probably run into it with other hardware than I did.
2) Provide the kernel source. Currently the kernel-source.dsl does not include the kernel source at all, but only the kernel headers necessary for compiling drivers. It is ridiculous for ANY linux distribution to not provide users with the basic tools necessary to compile their own custom kernels.
3) Provide libncurses-dev and Qt-devel. Anyone who downloads the source to compile even a semi-modern version of the Linux kernel is going to run into a really big problem when they type <<make menuconfig>> because newer kernel source uses libncurses-dev to compile the kernel config menu. Furthermore, if one were to try another route and type <<make xconfig>> that would result in failure too, because newer kernel source uses Qt-devel to create the menu that runs on XFree86, so without DSL providing Qt-devel <<make xconfig>> does not work either. You CANNOT compile a modern kernel without kernel source or the ability to configure the kernel you are compiling. I know you can compile older kernels without these tools, and that DSL purposely uses kernel 2.4 and not 2.6 to keep the kernel small and support older hardware, but that doesn't mean you have to hold the people back who do want to compile a modern kernel on their own.
4) Provide XFree86-devel. A person like me using an old laptop to do their programming cannot even compile simple-window.c because the files necesary for compiling programs that use X are not provided or even downloadable as a .dsl file in DSL currently. Sure you could use apt-get to install it, but if you are like me and moved to DSL from SuSE or Red Hat, what is apt-get? Only people with Debian experience know what apt-get even is, let alone how to use it, and then once we try it we are definately sure we don't know how to use it. Since you have started the DSL trend of naming all packages with a .dsl extension, make a XFree86-devel.dsl for us programmers to download.
5) Provide an ltmodem-x.xx.dsl file. The complaint "I can't use my Lucent WinModem" runs rampant all over the networking section of this forum, and there is just no excuse for it. The ltmodem driver has been around for an extremely long time, and has been well tested and works perfectly and flawlessly if compiled correctly. On SuSE you no longer even have to compile it because it is provided precompiled as an .RPM file. There is no reason why DSL could not do exactly the same thing, but with a .dsl file instead of a .RPM file. Furthermore, there is no good excuse not to. It is just insane that DSL can support drivers for all kinds of modern gadgets like wireless cards, but cannot support the driver for the most common modem chipset known to man and sold in 95% of all modems at every Walmart, BestBuy, and CompUSA all over the US, Candada, and probably most other countries too. The Lucent/Agere WinModem chipset is the most common modem chipset in the world today, and since there has already been a linux driver for it for a very long time that works very well, there is no reason or excuse not to provide ltmodem-x.xx.dsl in the myDSL Browser for any newbie to just click on and install precompiled. SuSE already has it in Yast; now DSL needs to get it in myDSL Browser. I would venture to say that more than 50% of all modem related complaints on the networking forum could be easily prevented by DSL providing this driver precompiled as a .dsl file.
Posted by mikshaw on Sep. 29 2005,16:17
You sound a little upset.I can give you a few answers from my own point of view...
As far as "providing" goes, I hope you are referring to simply "making it available for download". Adding these things to the main distribution would kill it.
2) The kernel, as far as I know, was taken directly from the knoppix distribution with no modification. While this isn't DSL providing it directly, it IS available.
3) Qt-devel is pointless in DSL. DSL has nothing that uses Qt, and it's a waste of resources providing it just so a user can get an X interface for building a kernel.
5) As far as I know, there may be issues with redistributing the ltmodem drivers. If I'm wrong, so be it. I can tell you that at least a few of us have attempted to build LT modules, and one person very recently succeeded. I suppose it's up to the DSL team to decide whether or not it's cool to include it in the repository.
You must understand that DSL is not, and never has been, a development system. It does provide you with the tools to turn it into a dev system. Regardless of whether you want to learn how to use the Debian package system, it is there and gives you access to everything you need.
Just because Suse does something a certain way, it does not mean that all distros should. Suse is 5 full CDs (not including the package sources)...DSL is 1/14 of one CD.
Posted by cbagger01 on Sep. 29 2005,16:40
1) Most new drivers will be provided by default with the next DSL kernel update. I don't know when this will be, but in the meantime you can "do it yourself".2) Get the kernel source from KNOPPIX version 3.4 date 5-17-2004 This is the kernel used in DSL. Better yet, download the ISO and use it to recompile your kernel and then copy the files over to your DSL system or use them to build a *.dsl extension.
3) sudo su; dpkg-restore;apt get install libncurses-dev Qt-devel
4) apt-get install Xfree86-devel
5) Someone is already working on a LT modem driver *.dsl extension. Even if the driver is not open source, if the license terms are "freely distributable" it is possible to add this extension to the myDSL repository.
Posted by WDef on Sep. 30 2005,17:02
| Quote |
| Currently the kernel-source.dsl does not include the kernel source at all, |
I think you may be right - it's not the full source + headers as gets configured after a kernel build. I think these are virgin Knoppix sources.
I tried using fakesource on these but no luck. Via this I inadvertently had flagged a bug in fakesource (or so I was told), which was reported.
Is it possible to download the full source + headers post-Knoppix kernel + modules build?
Posted by SaidinUnleashed on Sep. 30 2005,19:19
| Quote |
| 4) Provide <whatever>.dsl |
The DSL team officially provides only the gnu-utils.dsl and the dsl-dpkg.dsl.
That's it.
The rest are user-contributed. If you are interested in creating these extensions for use in DSL, that would be wonderful.
| Quote |
| Is it possible to download the full source + headers post-Knoppix kernel + modules build? |
The source .deb for the 2.4.26 kernel is available on the Knoppix source page (don't have the URL handy, and can't be bothered to google it myself), but many people have found it to be easier to just apply the patches in the kernelsource.dsl to the vanilla 2.4.26 tarball from kernel.org.
| Quote |
| 3) Qt-devel is pointless in DSL. DSL has nothing that uses Qt, and it's a waste of resources providing it just so a user can get an X interface for building a kernel. |
Quoted for great truth. QT is fat and ugly as crap.
-J.P.
Posted by lub997 on Oct. 01 2005,04:32
I feel so strongly that it is a basic necessity of any non-newbie linux user to be able to compile their own kernel and hook up to the internet with the most common modem chipset in the world that I would be more than glad to put the time into creating .dsl files of all of these packages and their dependencies, but need to know the specifics of how .dsl files are created, and what specifications they need to conform to. They appear to me to be just helloWorld-x.xx.tar.gz files renamed helloWorld-x.xx.dsl, since I have tried tar -xzvf on them and it works, but is there anything more to it than that? Are there any specific specifications or guidelines that need to be followed to create .dsl files that will work for everyone? Also, does anybody know why the newer kernel source (new as in 2.6.13) won't extract on DSL? I will also need to create a .dsl file for whatever program is necessary for this, but need to know what is missing. The older kernel source .tar.bz2 files extract fine, but the newer ones will not extract on DSL; <<tar -xjvf linux-2.6.13.tar.bz2>> does not work, but <<tar -xjvf linux-2.4.26.tar.bz2>> does work is what I am trying to say. Why is this? I need to know what is lacking in order to provide it. Assuming I am able to create these .dsl files, who do I need to give them to in order to make them easily accessible and easy to find by all DSL users right on the internet for download, and hopefully in myDSL Browser? I have always wanted to contribute to a smaller linux distribution, but have never gotten around to it. I think the flexibility DSL offers on older hardware makes DSL something I am interested in contributing to, but I need to know how to do it since I never have before. Also, as far as compiling the ltmodem driver, drivers on linux have to be compiled for the specific kernels that will be running them. What EXACT kernel source .tar.bz2 do I need to download in order to accomplish this, and an exact http:// or ftp:// address of where to download it would be extremely helpful. If I'm going to go through the time I don't have to create these packages, I don't want to compile things for the wrong kernel and then have them be of no use to anyone because they are compiled for the wrong kernel version. For instance, I don't want do download the source for a vanilla 2.4.26 kernel and then have the ltmodem driver not work for everyone because DSL uses a knoppix kernel, and I don't know what the difference is between a knoppix kernel and a vanilla kernel, so a web address of where to download the exact kernel source that DSL uses (not just the headers) would be very helpful, since I don't even know what to look for as far as finding kernel source that can create driver modules that every DSL user will be able to use. Anyone who has suggestions for creating good .dsl files of these packages, your suggestions are certainly welcome. I am a fairly experienced linux user and have no problem compiling most things, but need to know how to turn my compilations into .dsl files that everyone can use.
Posted by mikshaw on Oct. 01 2005,04:48
You can find documentation on creating MyDSL extensions in the wikki (link on the damnsmalllinux.org main page) and in the current/pdfdocs directory of the DSL download mirrors.They are essentially just tar.gz files, as you guessed, but there are a couple of things that need to be addressed in order for them to work well as mydsl packages....mainly file ownerships, which if set incorrectly could cause some applications (or the mydsl system itself) to break.
As I mentioned earlier, there has already been success with the LT modem modules, so unless you really want to build them yourself you might consider trying out the ones that Stinky made. There's a very recent thread (within the last week) about it, so a search should find it pretty easily.
Posted by lub997 on Oct. 01 2005,04:57
I don't even have a winmodem anymore. I have wireless. I merely noticed it being the most complained about topic on the networking forum and am more than willing to compile modules for it since everyone else seem to have so much trouble with it and I have done it successfully in the past, but if someone has already created modules that work, then great! It would be really great though if the person who created the modules could get a .dsl file of the compiled modules into the myDSL Browser for any newbie to download because I know it is a very big turn off to newbies who switch over from Windows and can't even connect to the internet, and in many cases results in people giving up on linux and never trying it again. Those of us who are experienced with linux need to make it easy for newbies to do basic things like using their winmodems so they can easily get connected to the internet and not get discouraged and give up on linux forever the first time they ever use it.
Posted by WDef on Oct. 01 2005,13:46
$0.02:It'd be difficult to say that you are not right to some degree about much of what you have raised.
But, to state the obvious: this is one of those projects where a small number of people clearly put it a lot of time for no money, purely for the love of it. There will be imperfections.
You've hit upon the right idea though: do it/fix it for yourself. Then post your work for the benefit of others as well. It'll be there for future reference.
Posted by lub997 on Oct. 01 2005,18:10
I created XFree86-devel.dsl, XFree-86-devel.dsl.info, and XFree86-devel.md5sum.txt and emailed them to extensions@damnsmalllinux.org It wasn't nearly as difficult as I thought it might be, but I would really like it if someone could try to install my XFree86-devel.dsl out of myDSL Browser if/when it gets added just for the sake of testing it to see if it installs automatically like I intended or if I still need to make improvements to it. It's hard for me to test it on my system since because I created the .dsl on my system the XFree86-devel files were already present on my system in order for me to tar and gzip them into a .dsl file, so if I try it on my system it is going to work regardless of whether or not I made a good .dsl file since the files are already present, and I'm working off of a permanent hard drive install, so what I install stays permanently. If someone isn't experienced with Xlib programming but would like to test it to see if it works on their system, I can provide a URL to a simple-window.c that can be downloaded and you could test it with that quickly and easiliy. I tried to provide easy instructions on how to use it in the .info file just in case the person who tests it does not have Xlib experience. Help in testing it would be greatly appreciated as if I am successful with it I plan to make more .dsl files for other packages too, but need to know if I'm on the right track in making good .dsl files. Might be best for someone with a non-hard drive install to test it so it won't be permanent if it doesn't work right.
Posted by mikshaw on Oct. 01 2005,21:37
When testing mydsl extensions, you should always boot up DSL liveCD with no backups or mydsl extensions loaded. This way you get a default system on which to properly test.
Posted by roberts on Oct. 01 2005,23:55
Glad to hear that there is interest by some to compile additional modules and such...As I have posted before, the next release of DSL will be major. DSL has always been based on Knoppix. Knoppix is no longer 2.4 based. Pretty easy to figure out what I am saying. You may want to hold off for a little because a new kernel means new modules means your new stuff today that is module based will not work when the next DSL is released.
LTmodems is in the base of the new system that I have made. It was one of the first things that I did. It is even autodetected. I felt that it is necessasy as it seems to be the most widely used one. I felt that it should be in the base as how would someone get it if dial-up is their only net connection. I smiled when I saw someone in the forums make an LTmodme.dsl as the beta testers were already using the pre-release with that capability.
After much testing, the base system is working extremely well on the many test systems that we have access to.
Notice that I said base system. There are some user contributed extensions that use modules. I felt that those should still be left to the community and their respective authors to update. Afterall, the myDSL system that I made was for the purpose to allow community members to participate.
The Wiki has the guidles for creating extensions of all types and the rules that should be followed.
With the new release, full kernel source will be provided to make building compatible modules easy.
Note that I have already provided automatic module loading at boot time with a /modules directory using a boot time option of modules
There will also be a logistical challenge of how to offer the new while still having the old around at least for awhile. By that I mean those extensions that are module based will become release specific.
Because of the aforementioned, look for a release candidiate, an RC1. During the RC series those who like to compile modules will have the opportunity to update those module based extensions. Those users who need module based extensions should stay with 1.5 until the RC series is completed. Afterall the RC series is like public beta testing.
John and I have have are hands full with the base. The extensions belong to the community.
Exciting and challenging times just around the corner...
I am glad that we have such a talented, ready, willing, and able community.
Robert
Posted by mikshaw on Oct. 02 2005,02:30
Weeeeeeee!Every release just gets more pleasantly surprising.
Posted by adssse on Oct. 03 2005,03:36
This is exciting indeed. Thanks for all the hard work. 
Posted by lub997 on Oct. 03 2005,08:27
Created and emailed libncurses5-dev.dsl and all of its dependencies in .dsl format to extensions@damnsmalllinux.org This will make it possible to do <<make menuconfig>> when compiling 2.6 kernels. I already tried <<make menuconfig>> on my system with 2.6 kernel source and it worked.Files that were emailed:
linux-kernel-headers.dsl (dependency of libc6-dev.dsl)
linux-kernel-headers.dsl.info
linux-kernel-headers.md5sum.txt
libc6.dsl (dependency of libc6-dev.dsl)
libc6.dsl.info
libc6.md5sum.txt
libc6-dev.dsl (dependency of libncurses5-dev.dsl)
libc6-dev.dsl.info
libc6-dev.md5sum.txt
libncurses5.dsl (dependency of libncurses5-dev.dsl)
libncurses5.dsl.info
libncurses5.md5sum.txt
libncurses5-dev.dsl
libncurses5-dev.dsl.info
libncurses5-dev.md5sum.txt
This should provide everything necessary for <<make menuconfig>> to work on a later 2.6 kernel in DSL, assuming I made the .dsl files correctly.
Posted by frankseu on Oct. 04 2005,09:11
@robertsCan i trust my eyes ?
In case this brings support to more newer hardware
and maybe also the Unionfs you make my day happy.
Hope you got good nervs and wich you luckey handes.
Please stay at 50MB.
A happy DSL user.
Posted by cbagger01 on Oct. 05 2005,17:01
Please stay away from UnionfsIt is buggy and resource intensive.
Posted by roberts on Oct. 05 2005,18:46
No unionfs but cloops have been greatly expanded!I am hoping that uci's will grow in use.
Posted by doobit on Oct. 05 2005,23:44
Wow. I hope it's still small and fast. I have been playing with the 2.26.12 kernel because of it's supposed speed. It does work pretty fast, but it is X that slows everything down on old machines. I feel as if I'm just starting to get to know DSL as it is now. I'm confident that you will continue to make only excellent improvements.
Posted by mikshaw on Oct. 06 2005,02:55
I just noticed today that there are 17 cloops in DSL 1.5....i thought it was still 8. I'm thinking that's a sufficient amount to justify even the smallest apps being mountable, so i think all (or most, anyway) of my extension contributions will be uci from now on.
Posted by roberts on Oct. 06 2005,03:18
Only eight are supported with the default Knoppix kernel. I had to build against a new kernel to go beyond 8. Also wrote a new mgmt code for them.
Posted by frankseu on Oct. 06 2005,07:31
Hi,found 50MB Linux based on 2.6.11.6 and Knoppix 3.9
its downloadable for free.
< http://www.inside-security.de/insert_en.html >
full read-write support for NTFS-partitions using captive
support for various file system types: EXT2,EXT3,MINIX,REISERFS,JFS,XFS,NTFS,FAT,MSDOS,NFS,SMBFS,CIFS,NCPFS,UDF,AFS,EFS,HFS,HFS+,
HPFS,SHFS,UFS,UNIONFS
support for linux software RAID and LVM2
support for WLAN adapters
network analysis (e.g. nmap, tcpdump)
disaster recovery (e.g. parted, gpart, partimage, testdisk, recover)
virus scanning (Clam Antivirus)
computer forensics (e.g. chkrootkit, foremost, rootkit hunter)
surf the internet (e.g. the web browser dillo [enhanced version], the graphical FTP client gFTP)
network boot server to boot network boot enabled clients that cannot boot from the CD (insert-remote)
installation on a USB memory stick (usb-install)
based on Linux kernel 2.6.11.6 and Knoppix 3.9
Perhaps a look on that will help to get ideas/find solutions.
Frank
Posted by Timeless Rogue Star on Oct. 10 2005,20:55
| Quote (lub997 @ Oct. 03 2005,04:27) |
| Created and emailed libncurses5-dev.dsl and all of its dependencies in .dsl format to extensions@damnsmalllinux.org This will make it possible to do make menuconfig when compiling 2.6 kernels. I already tried make menuconfig on my system with 2.6 kernel source and it worked. |
It looks like libncurses5.dsl (libncurses5-dev.dsl dependency) got lost along the way to the repository, what would be the best way to make sure it becomes available? All the other accompanying dsl packges seem to have made it okay.
Edit: I just noticed the testing extension forum, so i guess that would be the place to start. If any mods read this, they can delete this post.
Posted by AwPhuch on Oct. 10 2005,22:42
| Quote (roberts @ Oct. 05 2005,14:46) |
| No unionfs but cloops have been greatly expanded! I am hoping that uci's will grow in use. |
yes please!!
Brian
AwPhuch
Posted by adssse on Oct. 10 2005,22:59
I agree, I love the .uci's and hope their use only continues to grow
Posted by AwPhuch on Oct. 11 2005,15:33
Not only that but they are incredibly forgiving on machines with low ram...my old 133Mhz Compaq LTE 5300 with 32Meg ram can play the bubble pop game and the tux typing game for my kids, where the other standard mydsl games bog it to a crawl!Brian
AwPhuch
Posted by lub997 on Oct. 15 2005,04:28
I noticed that my .dsl files finally made it into < ftp://ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/damnsmall/mydsl/testing > That's pretty exciting for me. Someone mentioned that libncurses5.dsl didn't make it. I will re-email libncurses5.dsl ASAP so that somebody can test my .dsl files. Anyone who tests these .dsl files I have made, I would really appreciate it if you post as much feedback as possible about how the .dsl files act when you use them, as I want to make sure I am making them correctly and that they are functioning correctly for people. If they turn out to be successful, I plan to create many more .dsl packages in the future, but before I can do that, I have to make sure what I have already made works well.
Posted by lub997 on Oct. 15 2005,04:52
Re-emailed libncurses5.dsl, libncurses5.dsl.info, and libncurses5.md5sum.txt to extensions@damnsmalllinux.org Hopefully it will get through this time.
Posted by sefonorio on Oct. 15 2005,09:29
Hi everybody!I have no idea about if this suggestion has been made, but I think that it would be of great interest to translate to spanish some documentation of DSL Project (it could be very useful to the spanish linux community), but I have a problem... how to do it?
Please, feel free to contact me if my suggestion is good enough for this project at: sefonorio_at_hotmail.com (stripe out "_at_" and you have it).