Should the Lnx Community support 98 and ME users?
Forum: Linux and Free Software
Topic: Should the Lnx Community support 98 and ME users?
started by: noalternative
Posted by noalternative on Jan. 31 2006,17:39Please see my previous< post! >
Posted by crusadingknight on Feb. 14 2006,19:05You may not have noticed, but there are existing interfaces other than Win9x-style, command-line, and Vista. Making a distro to emulate Win9x is bizarre - there are better interfaces available.
Anyway, if you're really interested in a clone, one already exists: < E/OS LX >.
Posted by AwPhuch on Feb. 24 2006,03:49No! People with old computers should just have the plug pulled! They need new computers with XP/Vista installed on them. Long live Microsoft!
Please check out this thread
< http://damnsmalllinux.org/cgi-bin....t=10791 >
making linux look/operate like windows is rather ignorant and pointless...TEACHING people how to run away from M$ is what needs to be handled
Posted by hs7sv on Feb. 24 2006,06:41haha ... please don't waste your time ... join our Revolution! ... and learn how-to < Living without Windows! >
Posted by JohnH on Mar. 10 2006,13:00Microsoft's dropping of Win 9x and Me support is an opportunity for widening the linux community. If these people can be shown an easy to use free OS then we can win them over.
Linux needs easier program installation. It's sometimes very difficult to find a newly installed program.
Linux also needs easier file/disk user interface to win over these windows orphans. Typical reactions to mounting/unmounting user processes are "What is this nonsense?" and "Why cant I just click on it to open it up?"
There was a time when I was into being a computer guru (DOS 3.3). Now though I look at a computer as a tool to help me get things done in engineering/design and to get on the internet to communicate and research.
If the Linux community wants to spread linux, we need to accept that most people don't want to mess with thier OS. They just want to get, process, and send information. Sure the pioneers shouldn't have to do all their OS work for free but we're kinda stuck with that situation with Microsoft's strangle hold on the OS market.
Look at the bottom line of switching to Linux instead of upgrading to windows XP. It takes a lot of time to solve the issues involved in converting over to Linux, in my case I have spent over 100 hours researching, learning, and solving problems. It only costs $100 to upgrade to Win XP. So I took 100 hours to save $100 and still have nothing close to the capabilities of win XP. The mainstream computer user, even a techie type, is not going to look favorably on working for one-dollar-an-hour wages...
MY PERSONAL SOLUTION WAS TO BUY ANOTHER COMPUTER WITH WINDOWS TO BE SURE I COULD HAVE A WORKING SYSTEM AND THEN KEEP TRYING TO GET A USABLE LINUX SYSTEM SET UP ON THE OTHER ONE.
I now have 4 computers
Windows XP, Sempron 2600, 512Meg, 40Gig
Linux, Sempron 2600, 1Gb ram , 80Gig +2x200Gig raid HD
DSL PII-450, 512MB, 128Mb pendrive
Win 98, Celeron 466, 192Mb, 30Gig
I'd love to go all the way in linux but it's just not practical for me to put in the hundreds of hours it takes to make it all work well in linux. The big Linux box tends to just sit there. The DSL system is most used and when I want to work on spreadsheets I have to go to the windows box for Excel (I use a lot of matrix math..linux ss dont support this even though they say they do)
So me, a techie kinda of guy willing to keep trying is one thing. Getting more mainstream techies with even less time to mess with the OS issues is another. Iif we want to attract those Orphans from Win 98 and ME we have to make it just as easy as Win 98 and ME plus have an advantage like the virus protection etc.
Posted by doobit on Mar. 10 2006,15:56DSL is not your Windows replacement. Try SimplyMepis, or Ubuntu, or Mandriva, or some other multi-CD or DVD sized distribution.
The problem that has already presented itself, that I tried to address in the other thread, is that Microsoft has defined what is "easy to use" (and in fact they based that on what Apple's original idea was for a GUI and mouse, that they stole from Xerox). People are so accustomed to that model, that they expect Linux to become just like it. (This same argument goes on all the time between Mac users and Windows users.) Some Linux distros even have become very Windows-like (e.g. SimplyMepis and Kubuntu). I personally hope it never does become exactly the same because I want an alternative, not a replacement. Most distros of Linux today are easy to use, but have a learning curve for ex-Windows users because it is different. That is a good thing, not a bad thing. All of the information you need to learn is readily available. You just need to get off your couch, or you can even use your couch, doesn't matter, but put your brain in gear and learn. My personal solution was to build my own little computer ot run DSL. I'm not a techie, I'm and artist, and DSL has provided some great diversion.
Maybe I've become a little cynical because I do quite a bit of tech support for my Windows using friends. Sometimes I think they should require a license to use a computer. NO matter how easy it is, people often just do the wrong thing when they use it.
You don't need hundreds of hours to make Linux - even DSL- work well. You just need, to borrow a phrase, to think differently.
Also, You seem to be forgetting the hours it took for you to first setup and learn Windows, and all of the hours it takes you to maintain a working system in Windows because you need a spyware checker and a virus checker and a firewall and a defragmenter, and a cache cleaner and a registry cleaner, etc... All stuff that's not, at least not at this point in time, necessary with Linux. And Windows, even 98, will work great forever if you keep doing all that stuff.
Posted by mikshaw on Mar. 10 2006,16:23The < Linux Is Not Windows > article brings up many points that new Linux users often either ignore or just don't understand. I'm a Windows-to-Linux convert myself, and I admit that I had some troubles when I first started with Linux. However, after a few weeks of occasionally booting up Linux things began to make sense. I continued using Windows primarily, but one day i just decided to try the immersion technique and removed Windows. Within days i began to lose my desire for Windows, without any serious withdrawal symptoms, and now I've been Windows-free for nearly 2 1/2 years (sounds like a WA* meeting...).
Linux is different than Windows...that in no way says that it is not as good, or not better. In some cases the new Linux user might just have to get over his crutches and become accustomed to new ways of doing things. In other cases, there are distros and desktop environments available that make the transition from Win to Lin almost painless (DSL is not one of those, by the way). If distros such as Suse or Mandriva are not as easy to use as Windows for the new user, it's my belief that the problems are not the fault of Linux. They are either the result of the user becoming too easily confused by a slightly different gui and filesystem, or, more commonly, problems resulting from hardware manufacturers that focus mainly (or entirely) on Windows. If the manufacturer does not release specs for its products, there is no way for Linux developers to support that hardware, short of doing a lot of guesswork about how the hardware works. With hardware that fully supports Linux, these distros i mentioned would, for the most part, work right out of the box.
One other large difference between Linux and Windows, which some people like and others seem to either dislike or have no opinion of, is that Windows no longer has an interactive shell under the GUI. The GUI is the Windows system. What this means to me is that Linux is more flexible, and more powerful. The graphical system in Linux is just another application that can be controlled like any other. What this also means is that if you want to really harness the power and flexibility of Linux, you must learn things that you would never need to know in Windows. Sure it's theoretically possible to build graphical interfaces for every part of a Linux system, but you are trading off when you do that. The easier-to-use an application becomes, the more difficult it is to program, and the more likely there are to be bugs (that's not 100% accurate, but i believe it's a logical conclusion)...hence greater instability. There is a trade-off of flexibility and reliability anytime you put more focus on clickability, in my opinion.
Back to DSL, I don't think DSL is a very good example of Windows-to-Linux transition system. The 50mb size limit pretty much dictates that not everything will be available as a windows-user-friendly interface, so you are sometimes left with practicing the ancient art of Learning Something New**.
I can't speak much about the people who claim they want a system that "just works" so that they can get on with their work with no hassles. I've heard this argument from several people, and I can see the logic in it. However, I'm not one of these people, and never have been. While I consider myself a hard worker, I'm not productive or efficient in the business/marketing sense of the words...I take my time, and usually only do well with things that interest me. And I like to tinker with stuff. So this concept of simply getting on with the task at hand is foreign to me, and I can't justify a debate against it. This concept, as far as I can see, may be the number one issue against using Linux. Perhaps if you don't like to dig into your system, maybe Linux is not for you, and maybe it will be many more years (or never) before it has any enormous presence on the desktop. I really couldn't say, and personally don't care one way or another. What I do know is that I like Linux, and there are enough other people who do that it makes it worthwhile to come to places like this to share ideas and knowledge. Beyond that, I have no interest in promoting Linux or seeing it become a major competitor. If it does, fine....good for Linus.
EDIT: One more point....if you think Those last couple of sentences are me being "elitist", you are mistaken. When I say things like "maybe you should just stick with windows" I mean only that you're probably too focused on making your system behave like Windows, so why not just use Windows? Ok...that really didn't explain it any better, did it....
Anyway, I like Linux, and I don't care what happens with it as long as it remains open and flexible.
* Windows-users Anonymous
** The practice of gaining knowledge of an unfamiliar topic.
Posted by JohnH on Mar. 10 2006,19:39I understand your points
(BTW I did go to the linux is not Windows article and read it completely).
I have not had any sense of elitism in the DSL forum. That is really cool. Generally it seems to be that Linux guys are very friendly and ...well...open.
I do understand how much fun linux can be. It's like going down the road less travelled.
So where does that put me in this picture? My path has taken me to wanting to protect and extend freedom of speech. I believe OPEN SOFTWARE IS A FUNDAMENTAL REQUIREMENT FOR THE CYBERSPACE EQUIVALENT TO FREEDOM OF SPEECH. Closed software closes minds. Closed software is analogous to puting a restriction on who can use english, german, chinese, latin or any other language. Closed software makes it much easier to controll individual freedom. It can chain people to a small area of cyberspace without them realising it is happening. That's the danger of closed software. It holds people still so they are easy targets for exploitation. Microsoft and AOL are good examples. (no need to explain further I'm sure)
So at the very least we need to maximise the alternatives to windows and thereby keep an escape route open. I do what I can and that is sometimes not very much.
One thing I want to do is get kids to be familiar with linux. I'm going to try to set up some nearly free computer labs for schools. This means using two generations back hardware such as the PII-450 system I'm using right now. The OS will have to be something light like DSL. Maybe by the time I learn enough to go forward, the hardware and memory prices will be down enough to use Knoppix or Ubuntu.
MyDSL is a bright star in the way programs/extensions are added. The MyDSL process and modularity is in fact brilliant! Exact simple and manageable.
My whining about how the file system interface works is justified though. Curently I'm trying to learn how to customize boot pendrives. The forum gurus are being very kind and responsive to me in response to questions I post. ... I'm suffering from not knowing the history or file systems and hardware devices. For example: I ve been told that I can save a directory that will live on the pen drive after reboot by copying it to /CDROM but if I save it on /sda1 it will disappear after reboot? Surely this must be a spinoff from the days there were no pendrives and now the code relating to CDROMs has been edxtended to work with pendrives. It seems that filesystems management could be much less arcane though.....
BTW thanks again for being so active in this forum.
Posted by doobit on Mar. 10 2006,20:01
Actually, that's not the reason for that. I dont' remember exactly why Robert made it that way, but a few versions back he had it set up a little differently.
 OK, I guess Robert answered that question, in a way, in your other thread.
Posted by mikshaw on Mar. 10 2006,23:20
That's a good point...one that i haven't seriously thought about. Maybe I should begin to reconsider my indifference about the popularity of Linux. I hear a lot about "market share" or "competition" and tend to just ignore it, since it sounds like capitalist cow plop to me. I am, however, very interested in personal freedoms. The possibility of open source and GPL being one day outlawed is not such a ridiculous one, particularly in the US. All it takes is a little well-placed propaganda and a few powerful corporations.
Fortunately so far some of the largest IT companies support Linux, at least to a point.
Posted by JohnH on Mar. 11 2006,03:10I used to have some sympathy for Microsoft. But when I heard Microsoft bought SCO so it could bring a lawsuit against linux, that all changed.
Posted by mikshaw on Mar. 18 2006,06:11You are ball of mushy oatmeal, pigdog! So...you have one minor problem and spend the next several weeks bitching and trolling? If you just go away it will make everyone happier.
Marcus = B_A_D = Onikage
Just go away already.
Posted by JohnH on Mar. 19 2006,15:03
Milkshaw? Because you mention Markus I'm hoping you just accidentally posted here with that nastygram?
If not what did I do or not do?
Posted by mikshaw on Mar. 19 2006,16:26There was another post after yours. Honest there was!
Posted by humpty on Mar. 20 2006,04:44I actually feel sorry for 98ME users. When 98 came out I thought it was the best OS in the world, then it could'nt keep up with the soft/hardware and ofcourse the 64k resource stack thingy was the final straw. I'd been looking for alternate OSs since then. BEOS was promising, but this was just another example of a closed product go bust and losing support with it. Linux is different, it is open which means diversity. Some complain about too many 'flavours' of Linux, but this is the whole point. You 'can' have a 98 emulator version, you 'can' have a 'Suse' or 'Gentoo' flavour, who's to say not? Linux is bigger than windows, or, damnSmaller ;-) But let's not forget Linux is there because of it's community. How can we ignore 98ME users especially since some of us once were? I'm not saying we should target the 98ME environment, but if we can alleviate some of their problems wether through mydsl apps or hdinstall tips, maybe they'll go off to make something of their own? (and leave us alone :E !)
Posted by pr0f3550r on May 03 2006,17:04Anybody can explain how this thread gets sticky in the 'new post' result?
What kind of 'post bomb' are you using, or is there a bug in the forum software? I've never liked ikonboard!
Posted by mikshaw on May 03 2006,18:19It's a poll. Apparently every time someone votes in a poll, it bumps the thread to the top of the stack.
Posted by lovdsl on May 03 2006,18:24There are lots of reasons to make good use of old computers.
< http://www.ciber-runa.net/guide/BetterUpgrade--ActivistGuide.html >
I think ,dsl, to some extent is already supporting win 95/98/me/ users by provideing an internet ready, easy to install linux os. different yes, but can replace most basic functions in a new and sometimes exciteing way.
what is needed is more .dsl and better documentation for converts.
personally I do not like windows, I was just forced to use it. ultimately I would like to escape the constant updates, reinstalls, fearware, bugs and spam, and system attacks. but it appers nothing can stop it.
at least the linux community is awake to the monopolistic power hungry, privacy stealing, politically correct resgime andI hope realize that same is realitive with regard toease of use.
I like the difference but do see the need for better ease of use in some cases with linux.
I jsut booted an old 95 machine yesterday and found myself unable to copy paste at first, so use to the two button click. I finally formatted the drive and did this for fun
thinking about the appless dsl
Dsl-s..aka dsl naked
< http://my.opera.com/dsl-o/homes/albums/64749/dslnaked.png >
with the slit auto hide top center by default, open and showing the default drawer with six apps installed via the mydsl icon at the top.
< http://my.opera.com/dsl-o/homes/albums/64749/Opera.png >
< http://my.opera.com/dsl-o/homes/albums/64749/ABIword.png >
< http://my.opera.com/dsl-o/homes/albums/64749/sylpheedgqview.png >
< http://my.opera.com/dsl-o/homes/albums/64749/jpilot.jpg >
synaptic is not an option in dsl-s
The right click menu shows no mydsl, no apps and no games. The apps /tools menu replaces apps on the main menu. and includes xcalc , beaver, dillo, and net menu items.
The right click menu being a utilities menu and the drawer the mydsl menu of installed applications.
all applications in the mydsl download menu will install and function with no concern for dependancies.
all upgrades are the responsibility of the user and are in no way related to or supported by dsl-s
standard hd installs do not offer extension uninstall..choose your extensions wisely.
frugal installs may use the standard uci menu
amazing..I pop up an icon. click it, choose a program, click it and it installs. the next time I open the menu there it is for use...windows users would be searching and waiting wondering if it was really so simple...thats ease of use...
Posted by AwPhuch on May 03 2006,22:54I dont know if someone has posted this before but there is still a legitimate way to update M$ products using browsers other than IE
< http://windowsupdate.62nds.com >
I use firefox to update the security updates only (you wont find any software enhancement updates) but the security hole updates can be gotten from there completely legitimately
Posted by kerry on May 03 2006,23:29I beleave security is up to the computer user. No one i know depends on microsoft security, most people use some third party program for security and antivirus. I'm sure windows realized this so chose to drop it. When there is a problem it is usally between the chair and the keyboard, microsoft has made people lazy, now any dipshit who can type gets on the internet with out a clue about protecting them selves from being a victim of there own stupidty.
Posted by lovdsl on May 04 2006,02:54Guess that would be me...I see someone has highlited NEW in red in my post..cool..never thought of coloring the text...win 95 users can still use IE5.5 as a bootleg and get a retarder that extracts 5.5 leaveing the included files for update. they can use opera browser maby firefox..did not try that on 95...anti virus and security programs just slow everything down.. it seems easier to not keep personal information on a computer and put it in your head...the only thing a computer can do is track you to the current location while you are connected to the net. the other danger provideing access to a third party. I have not figured out how to track that..but I know it can be done easy enough....that said..I better run...
Hmm and now the color is gone..strange
Posted by pr0f3550r on May 04 2006,16:54I think this thread is haunted.
Insults that come and go... strange colors, allucinations, are we alone in the universe?
By the way, I lost track of the meaning of 'Linux community supporting win98'?
Posted by lovdsl on May 04 2006,20:29I think the real issue here is that the world has not yet invented an operating system and find that more money can be made by selling an idea and chargeing for the fixs.
dsl is no better in this regard but at least does not charge 350 for more of the same.
If windows 95 was actually an operating system people could continue to use it without concern for a life time, unless they wanted to add new features not in it. not unlike the underwood typerwriter I still have on my desk.
winxp to my understanding is a forced lease of an os on every computer you buy. service is giving control of the system to them by registration. it will freely update until the updates are so many the see an opportunity to sell you what you already have in a new package..I here there is a new windows aka bambozel in the works that is ready with 50 updates and offers contractual 1year lease at only 85 a month with with political correctnessbot to ammend all internet documents sent.
Posted by kerry on May 05 2006,07:35I say let all those still using older version's of windows buy new machines and move on to XP/Vista, that just means more older cheap machines for those who actually have taken the time to learn linux to put them to use.
Posted by ADamnSmallLinux on May 09 2006,18:48
mabe you simply need to find the right linux distribution
Posted by macadavy on May 11 2006,05:36
This is one of the best things (MyDSL) about DSL. What a shame proprietary programs like Macromedia's Flashplayer can't be packaged this way. The installer in Firefox 1.0.6 (DSL 2.3) hangs and trying to follow the two pages(!) of instructions for the manual install on MM's website induces screaming rages of frustration! And why is it that Linux leaves the old version first in line - rather than overwriting all but the config files with the newer version? I don't get it - the amount of friggin' around drives me around the bend. Its probably my own fault for failing to memorize all umpteen zillion Unix commands for the Command Line Interface. Oh well, to h*ll with Flash anyway. BTW - Mozilla's Flashplayer downloader/installer in DSL-N 0.1RC1 works just fine - go figure!
Posted by mikshaw on May 11 2006,15:35You really need to learn at least a little about the basics of Linux before understanding why certain things are done the way they are, but truly it is quite logical and simple most of the time. The basics in my opinion are not just commands, but also some level of understanding about file permissions, environment variables, filesystem hierarchy, and even a little about Bash. All of this information can be found at < http://www.tldp.org/guides.html >
Posted by kerry on May 13 2006,12:11Isay let those window users wine to microsoft. There main concern is not about learning linux, they just want another windows that is secure, but there is no such thing. If they were really looking for a new OS they would take the time to learn the new OS. Anyone knows that all OS's are different, they expect that if they use a linux or mac system that it should act like windows. Just tell them to get a clue, if linux was like windows they would drop them to instead of taking time to support a wide range of systems.