Damn Small Machine in DSL Store!
Forum: Hardware Talk
Topic: Damn Small Machine in DSL Store!
started by: dslfool
Posted by dslfool on Aug. 05 2005,21:51
Jeepers, isn't anyone going to comment on how cool the < Nano-ITX Damn Small Machine > in the DSL store is? (Unless I've missed some previous posts, which I often do, 'cause although I'm fine searching via Google I'm continually missing relevant posts I'm searching for here. :-) )Anyway, WOW. So cool. Or is it just me?
To John: I can't afford one of these now, but I with you well with your initial run of 50.
Posted by green on Aug. 05 2005,22:25
me wonders what the expected ship dates are if someone were to place an order now ?it sure is small !! and the cool factor is very high !
Posted by cbagger01 on Aug. 06 2005,15:39
I wonder if it is possible to install a CompactFlash/IDE adapter?You could then either install an internal CompactFlash card instead of the pendrive, or for a different approach you could install a CFmicrodrive and do an install with a swap partition.
John, is this possible?
Posted by John on Aug. 07 2005,02:37
There is enough room in them to have a low profile IDE flash disk installed. We are going to be carring them in 512MB and 1Gb sizes soon.
Posted by Crimson on Aug. 09 2005,01:18
Hey John how did you make the case for your mini-itx because I want to build a mini-itx system but I don't have the money to buy a case. Plus I think making a case is much better. But for me the case has to be mobile. So if you have any tips or sugested supplies I would be very Greatful. I already have the components I just need the case. Please Help Me Out.
Posted by John on Aug. 09 2005,05:22
I didn't fallow any plans really. I just got a couple of small pieces of plexiglass and drilled some holes.There is some detail about the parts in this thread:
< http://damnsmalllinux.org/cgi-bin....2;st=15 >
Posted by Crimson08 on Aug. 09 2005,06:33
hey thanks alot for the link i think i got some pretty good ideas
Posted by John on Aug. 14 2005,06:36
Fallow up...Cbagger01, it will take a specially made low profile IDE flash unit. I've added 1GB and 512MB drives and a driveless option for those who have their own USB keys or want a crack at hacking something together.
Posted by 100thMonkey on Aug. 20 2005,22:44
Hello,What can the nano itx wtih a cf disk handle as far as a webserver. I keep up to more or less 500megs to a 1gig of xhtml on the net for editing and mirroring to another website online. Can the nano itx with the dsl handle being online 24/7?
Thanks
Posted by John on Aug. 23 2005,06:11
I can't give you a real answer to that question. I've only logged about 36 hours on my test unit. All seems well, but that is hardly a test for what you have in mind.
Posted by green on Aug. 23 2005,21:23
How soon will the DamnSmallMachine ship after it is ordered?
Posted by John on Aug. 24 2005,02:55
I am having all the pre-ordered units shipped to me mid-September, and then we'll process the credit cards and ship out a couple of day after that.
Posted by 100thMonkey on Aug. 29 2005,07:55
John,Is your test nanobox running still? What is the uptime so far?
thx
Posted by John on Aug. 31 2005,06:04
100thMonkey, I am not doing a marathon with it, when I am done I've been shutting it off. It may seem wacky, but I never keep my computers running without actually doing some work.
Posted by s_f on Sep. 12 2005,08:32
Can this thing boot through network, making it the perfect thing for an internet cafe?[EDIT] (this button is my companion and saviour) I intended to hook one DSL DSM to router, router to 2 switches, and have other DSM's boot from that machine. Or I can just make them boot a SuSE9.3 live edition from a P3 'file/web server'...
So does the main board support booting through LAN? Is it's BIOS much like the common ASUS standards?
Some things need to be discussed more thoroughly between me ad my partners in crime, but when things work out (and if we can't get those P2 systems from some office) you may expect an order for ten of those to start with. If so, I'll order one test version with a small flash drive.
Longest EDIT I ever posted... Also: I'm gonna register the concept of creating a network of DSM's that boot from network. Sue me.
Posted by dslfool on Sep. 12 2005,23:23
This is neither here nor there, but just out of curiosity, what's the slit in the front of the case above the power button on this svelte beauty? Vent? Attractive design element?
Posted by John on Sep. 18 2005,06:50
They are ventilation, the case itself is quite stout because it acts as an extension of the heatsink.
Posted by bcm on Sep. 22 2005,03:23
If the Damn Small Machine can boot a USB stick, would that work the same with a USB 2.0 2.5" HDD enclosure? I have an enclosure that is powered by the USB port. Will the USB port support that much power? CompactFlash is just NOT enough space to install linux along with all the useful applications. I was thinking about securing a 2.5" USB enclosure with a 40GB or 80GB drive to the side of this case, maybe with Velcro™. 
Anyway, just wondering if this particular nanoITX board would support it. Thanks!
Posted by cbagger01 on Sep. 23 2005,04:36
I don't have a Damn Small Machine, but if the device supports the USBHDD method of booting, it should also work just fine with a REAL usb hard drive.Just make sure that your USB hard drive enclosure is controlled by the standard "USB Mass Storage" protocol.
If it can be installed to a Windows 2000/XP computer without the need for special drivers or if it has Mac support it should use the "USB Mass Storage" protocol.
Posted by 100thmonkey on Sep. 25 2005,00:36
Hello, I had been putting off the idea of ordering a nanoitix. Is it too late for ordering?thx,
100thmonkey
Posted by John on Sep. 25 2005,22:45
We are still taking orders. I am going to make it an ongoing item.Unfortunately there is a delay in the initial order, the manufacturer is out of stock and there will be a two or three week delay.
Posted by WearableCluster on Oct. 05 2005,07:56
What chipset does the nano-itx motherboard have? I'd love to have Linux BIOS running on such a machine. Even without running a disk you could have a compressed ramdisk with some utilites to do basic things. I did see a website with the 40 GB microdrive used in the new ipod. 
That's twice the hard drive I have in the Debian 1GHz PIII Laptop i'm typing on right now. If you had Linux with a few utilities you could do simple things like text editing etc. from a ram disk in memory and spin up the microdrive to save it later. Remember, with wearable computing every milliamp counts... I have an IPaq 3800 which I could use as a screen. (The earphone jack broke which also prevents the speaker from working, so I have no sound) 
so I got a gumstix with the audio stixboard ... I still have to build a little case for it though...
PS. This message was supposed to go here. Can anyone nuke the "chipset" topic?
Posted by Matjo on Oct. 05 2005,23:48
So the memory is not expandable? I was hoping for a SODIMM connector.
Posted by Jagasian on Oct. 10 2005,18:46
Any chance that a double-decker CF-IDE adapter will fit in the machine? It would be nice to be able to use two CF cards for 8GB maximum internal flash storage. The pics show a parallel port but no TV video out. Is that backplane an accurate representation of the I/O available on the final unit? It is nice to see the parallel port, as I mainly want to use this in place of legacy systems.One more question, is it possible to setup DSL to act as a USB storage device? That is, is it possible to make the Nano-ITX machine behave as if it were a USB hard drive when connected to another computer via the USB port? That would be great for sharing files with people, as you could always keep your DSL Nano-ITX machine on you. Setting up a network file share takes more effort than simply plugging in a USB drive.
Posted by cbagger01 on Oct. 11 2005,17:57
The problem is that your USB ports are connected to a USB host CONTROLLER instead of a USB device.However, it should be possible to use some kind of special device driver to make a usb port behave as if it is a slave somehow.
I believe that this is how USB to USB file transfers are done using 3rd party utilities like Norton Ghost or laplink.
If a Linux driver exists for a similar operating mode, it is possible in theory but you would need to compile the driver and install it in order for it to work.
Posted by Jagasian on Oct. 14 2005,02:38
Can we get more pictures of the inside of the device, with and without the IDE flash drive installed?
Posted by DDW on Oct. 19 2005,23:16
Hey John,You've got a winner with the Nano. I live in Sacramento so I would love to drive down and check it out. Possible? I'll buy one on the spot if the performance is reasonable. Got one for me?
Thanks,
DDW
Posted by ergouser on Oct. 30 2005,13:40
What's the input power? Am I really the only person in the known universe interested in running fanless mini/nano-Itx in an industrial enviornment where 24V DC (+/-) is the absolute standard?Currently, I have a solution by cramming one of the 24V automotive power supplies into a fanless box, but the solution is huge (relatively). This box would be magnificent, the right size, fanless, powerful (800MHz is plenty for most of the applications we ever run), but I bet it's 12V and not 24V. So close, and yet so far...
Posted by faroutscience on Oct. 30 2005,15:57
A solid state DC-DC converter should work fine and have a small footprint as well.Jeff
Posted by ergouser on Oct. 30 2005,17:39
If you can suggest something that will fit in the box, I'd love to hear it (I've been searching).An external DC/DC is an option, but that blows the whole packaging concept. "Here's a really well packaged industrial computer and by the way you need this ugly power supply that you have to mount externally to make it work". It wouldn't be well received, and it marks the product as not really industrial. Industrial customers expect 24V input, it's what they've got and what they know. (a 24V/12V DIN Rail mount DC/DC is also about $100, that's not the most important factor, but it does hurt).
Posted by MethodOne on Oct. 31 2005,23:28
1. Is LILO or GRUB used for the packages with the preinstalled CF card?2. Will I be able to use a Microdrive like < this one > with the DSM?
Posted by Ken on Nov. 01 2005,13:01
| Quote (John @ Sep. 25 2005,18:45) |
| We are still taking orders. I am going to make it an ongoing item. Unfortunately there is a delay in the initial order, the manufacturer is out of stock and there will be a two or three week delay. |
Last feedback from September is on a 3 week delay. It is now November, are these shipping?
Posted by faroutscience on Nov. 01 2005,14:47
John mentioned mid November in an earlier post. I'm sure that date is tentative. No one in the US has them for retail sale at this time.(That I have been able to find.)
Jeff
PS. Things I have ordered from DSL have arrived promptly and in first class condition. DSL is a class act!
Posted by John on Nov. 16 2005,06:42
We FINALLY have some DSMs in stock -- two months after our original expected date! We'll be processing the pre-orders over the next couple of days. For those of you who were patient enough to wait, thank you.
Posted by Z3r0 on Nov. 17 2005,17:45
http://www.msti.com.tw/ebox3800.htmNow, a few questions... the nano-itx boards have 6 channel sound, this doesn't appear to have enough sound connectors on the rear for analog 6 channel (3 connectors), does this have SPDIF for digital 6 channel sound?
Also, does this board have a sata connector as per:
< http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/via-epia-n/via-epia-n.html >
Something I noticed is that your board has a VT8235 southbridge (if it is the same as the ebox one) which only has ATA133 and the one on the link above has a VT8237 which has sata and raid, did via change their mobo design at the last minute or are these say... an earlier revision? from the roadmap it looks as those the epia N / NL will not have sata
so I would assume they changed their mindsWhat motherboard is this using? epia N?
How many do you have in stock at the moment? if any?
damn, one more question.... I live in the UK and i'm moving to Australia in 2 weeks
what sort of power connector does it have? Will it be ok just to put a universal power connector on the plug or do I need to purchase a power adaptor?Australia+uk are 230v 50hz but 240v is ok
USA is 120v 60hz
Posted by sjborch on Dec. 01 2005,04:41
The Damn Small Machine has arrived! I could hear the ticking of a quartz clock that I have in my cubicle...My Dell is quiet, too, but not silent. I'm very impressed.
Posted by faroutscience on Dec. 01 2005,20:55
Please post a review when you get a chance. I'm dying for details!Jeff
Posted by John on Dec. 04 2005,03:37
Z3r0, the board is an Epia N, but it does not appear to have a sata connector. Best I can tell this is a board made specifically by Via for the 3800.I currently have only 5 left in stock, but I am getting twenty more this month.
Posted by John on Dec. 04 2005,03:43
| Quote (MethodOne @ Oct. 31 2005,18:28) |
| 1. Is LILO or GRUB used for the packages with the preinstalled CF card? 2. Will I be able to use a Microdrive like < this one > with the DSM? |
I am installing them with LILO + frugal, though I don't see why you couldn't use grub if you wanted. As for your question on the microdrive, maybe if you got creative. But that is a replacement for Type II where these take a compact IDE flash drive.
Posted by John on Dec. 04 2005,03:57
To everyone who has received one of the DSMs, it is very important that you open up your case and remove that CLEAR plastic sheet which sits on top of your CPU heat sink, but leave the blue/gray sheet that sits below it.That blue/gray sheet will eventually fuse the outer case to the CPU heat sink, in effect transforming the outer case into an extension of the heat sink. If you leave the clear plastic sheet over it heat transfer will be hindered.
I have left the clear plastic sheet on the heat sinks because I figure anybody who has ordered a DSM is going to want to open his case up and see what is happening inside (I mean, that's the first thing I did!). After you are done exploring, be sure to take yours off, the case plays a critical role in keeping these things cool without a case fan.
Note: you all should also have a flier that came with your box that explains this.
Posted by kopsis on Dec. 04 2005,13:21
| Quote (John @ Dec. 03 2005,22:43) |
| As for your question on the microdrive, maybe if you got creative. But that is a replacement for Type II where these take a compact IDE flash drive. |
Type I (normal CF card) vs. Type II (microdrive) is simply a form factor difference (Type II cards are fatter than Type I). From a CF interface perspective the microdrives (as long as they are the full-up retail units and not a crippled drive pulled from an iPod mini) are indistinguishable from CF memory cards. Some older CF digicams can't handle microdrives due to either the higher power draw or the large capacity but I can't see that being a problem for the DSL machine.
Posted by John on Dec. 04 2005,20:49
The issue will be getting an IDE to Type II adapter that will fit inside the enclosure. I mean, it may be possible to squeeze it inside the cavity on the other side of the motherboard but I haven't tried. The IDE flash units we are pre-installing with DSL are quite small "Disk On Module" integrated IDE flash.
Posted by Ceres on Dec. 06 2005,13:31
| Quote (John @ Nov. 16 2005,01:42) |
John,
Can you tell me the current availability of the Nano DSMs?
Also, in the case of the versions with CF cards, I assume this leaves the USB port empty. Is it possible to insert a USB drive stick and mount it as a partition?
Thanks,
Dave
Posted by fuzzybud on Dec. 07 2005,22:59
I sent a quick reply that seems to have gone up in smoke. If it appears I apologize for double posting. My concern is the your statement that the case will fuse with the heat sink. Does that mean the box can not be opened again? To a life long mechanic that sounds not right. What if the CF card needs to be replaced or something else? A possible solution would be to smear silicone heat transfer jell on the heat sink. Then heat would transfer but not fuse the case. The other point I don't like to hear is that a micro drive won't fit in the space for the CF disk. I bought the damn small machine last Sunday expecting that I could use a micro drive. I see a problem looming to be solved.
Posted by AwPhuch on Dec. 07 2005,23:15
I dont see why you couldnt put ArticSilver or whatever in lieu of the bonding material..why would it not also work...The Microdrives aren't that big..the adapter cant be that big as well
Brian
AwPhuch
Posted by sjborch on Dec. 08 2005,05:10
I've been running the DSM for about a week now. I did open the case and remove the plastic sheet, then replaced the cover. I learned in the #damnsmalllinux irc chat to install MyDSL apps to /cdrom, and they are there after a reboot. I'm a little nervous with this frugal install and don't want to do something stupid. I would not know how to reinstall onto the CF drive.
That being said, it is a fantastic DSL platform. Completely silent, the only indication that it is on is the bright (almost too bright) blue LED on the front of the case. The case is a bit heavy, being that it is an integral part of keeping the system cool.
DSL runs on it exactly like it does on my desktop, only silently.
Update: Since I can boot to my DSL USB stick, I guess much of my worry is unwarranted. (I'm running of that right now).
Posted by John on Dec. 08 2005,18:06
fuzzybud, fuse is not quite the right word, I have open my test unit up several times. The heat transfer element is gummy and has a rubber consistency and acts as a contact layer between the heatsink and the case. The stickiness of the contact layer does make it harder to open, but it does come off with a little effort. I would, however limit opening the case to only when you need to because repeated openings will probably wear the contact layer out or reduce its effectiveness.
Posted by fuzzybud on Dec. 09 2005,02:12
Thanks, John, for easing my mind on the heat sink issue. I ordered two ounces of silicone heat transfer jell but will hold off on using it until after using the case as it comes. The next problem is how to fit a microdrive inside the case. If there is no other solution I will cut a slit in the case to let the top of the microdrive stick out of the case a bit, my geeky hotrod. Somehow a solution will be found as the microdrive seems like a better storage device than a CF disk. Of course it has more capacity and getting bigger each new iteration but also for better reliability, not having to worry about too many writes to disk. Then too the prices are falling to where microdrives will be used everywhere in everything.
Posted by faroutscience on Dec. 09 2005,02:17
Any chance the DSL store will carry the microdrives?Jeff
Posted by John on Dec. 10 2005,22:41
fuzzybud, when you are done I would love some screenshots.faroutscience, the problem is that we are not able to buy items like RAM, flash or micro drives at competitive rates. For items like that it is a volume game and we are just too small.
Posted by faroutscience on Dec. 11 2005,18:37
The microdrive looks like a good option for the Damn Small Machine. They are expensive but not out of the question.They would fit well with projects I have in mind.
Thanks, Jeff
Posted by doobit on Dec. 14 2005,19:55
Jeff,Do a little research on them first. They don't have a good reputation for reliability. Some photogrphers I know have ditched them in favor of the larger silicon CF cards.
Posted by cbagger01 on Dec. 15 2005,17:13
They work inside iPODs.Chances are you will need to bury them inside some sort of shock absorber system in order to make them bump-resistant.
Unfortunately, most shock absorbers (IE: foam) are also good thermal insulators and will restrict the cooling for the microdrive.
A good compromise solution might be to install shock aborbing foam at the four corners of the drive assembly and leave the rest of the drive exposed to the air.
Posted by microdrive rated for 200 Gs. on Dec. 15 2005,18:55
Before ordering a Hitachi Microdrive I looked at the specs. The drive is rated for 2000 Gs when not in use and 200 Gs during read/write. It has small shock absorbers built into the case. In a review in a camera magazine the reviewer said he accidently dropped his microdrive three feet to a hard floor and it survived the fall to work flawlessly afterwards. I haven't used one yet so take these statements for what they are worth.
Posted by DrRamble on Dec. 16 2005,09:44
Microdrives are robust. I carry mine wherever my laptop goes - thrown in the boot of my car, tripped over by children. I bet it would have an easier life in a nano than with me...I beleive early Hitachi drives have very small buffers - later ones have much improved throughput.
HTH
DrR
Posted by faroutscience on Dec. 16 2005,16:30
Thanks for the reliability tips.I have tried various laptop drives over the years. Hitachi has the best g & mtbf ratings that I have found. I have found them to be very reliable in rough use.
I hope that carries over into the micro drives. I have not yet tried them. It does sound like the market is still developing for them.
I recall IBM's announcement back in the 90s. The media called them a "drive that would fit in a matchbox".
Jeff
Posted by kopsis on Dec. 17 2005,00:12
Microdrives don't need much in the way of shock isolation. The incredibly low mass of the moving parts makes them naturally more rugged than a conventional PC hard drive.I use a 4GB Hitachi Microdrive in my Zaurus handheld which sees plenty of bumps and vibration. Unless you're going to put the PC in a really harsh environment (automotive, industrial, etc.), virtually any mounting scheme that allows reasonable heat dissipation should work fine.
Posted by Doofer on Jan. 26 2006,19:55
Frustrating that the DSL store doesn't give more specs ie. the machine's identity! I was daft enough to think that because it is called a 'Nano ITX Machine' it used 'THE' Nano ITX board (the one everyone is waiting for), whereas it is a Nano-format embedded thingy with no scope for RAM expansion. Still, it does use the new Eden N processor (all those on-chip MPEG-II, security & sound goodies just waiting for someone to write apps for).The DSM John sent me is an eBox-3850 (with COM & LPT ports) - the 'fat' version, which at 58mm wide is designed specifically with fitting a 2.5" hard drive in the box in mind - so no need to fiddle about with smaller (and pricier) HD types.
I note the eBox-3800 lacks Com & LPT... and any room for a HD... but at 38mm wide is perhaps even sexier still if you just want a DSL thin client... okay, difficult to imagine 'sexier than the DSM'...
Posted by Grumpy_Penguin on Feb. 04 2006,23:19
I received mine a couple of weeks ago unfortunately the USB pen drive was dead on arrivalI do have a 5GB USB travel-drive that I use to transfer files around so how would I go about installing the OS on it from my desktop PC [Mandriva 2006
Posted by John on Feb. 06 2006,07:40
I gave you a tip via email, but try puting the USB pen in before you power up and then going into the bios and selecting USB HDD boot, then exit the bios and see what happens. The screen should flash blue with a boot prompt. If you get black, try "ctl + alt + del" and then let it start the boot process again.If all else fails send me the pen back and I'll format you another one.
Posted by jwright12 on Feb. 22 2006,20:53
Bought the DSL machine with the 1Gig Flash drive about a month ago for a data aquisition project (if it works, will need 25 more). Haven't even plugged it in yet but thinks it's great and is going to fill the bill. (my programmer has same opinion). Silly me, didn't order the usb pen drive at that time. Since then, have ordered the cd, book and plan to install on flash drive with our program to create as shippable product. Strange thing though, on original order, the DSLmachine came in with an eBoxs Driver cd for xp/2k - 98/me in the box and nothing else. Haven't a clue what it's for ? any help?
Posted by Doofer on Feb. 23 2006,18:54
Good question. XP at 800MHZ? Eugh.My DSM is running fine - USB (Sexy 1GB < Intelligent Stick > to match sexy DSM) install boots speedily toram, whereupon it feels like the fastest machine on the planet.
Anyone keen on turning the < Via Enhanced Xine Player > into a UCI, so DSM owners can have a silent multimedia centre? Okay, need for a USB2.0 HD to store all the Media...
Posted by Grumpy_Penguin on Feb. 24 2006,00:05
If there is any information available [like a users manual on this Machine I would love to get a copyHow do I open it up again to install a 1" hard drive?
Posted by fuzzybud on Feb. 24 2006,04:59
Under the motherboard is a slot for a 2.5 inch hard drive. I installed a 60 GB Seagate in my DSM. In the package for DSM is a ribbon cable for attaching the hard drive. It isn't difficult to install. It will be easy if you have or get a 5mm nut driver to take out the stand off posts under the motherboard. If you have specific questions I will be happy to answer if I can.
Posted by CharlesBC on Mar. 01 2006,19:44
I'm wondering about the DSM. How's the multimedia support? Although I doubt anyone would place many (if any) movies on a 256mb/1GB flash card, I'm still curious if the DSM hardware supports the codecs provided through a MyDSL extension.