Frugal? Needs more documentation!
Forum: HD Install
Topic: Frugal? Needs more documentation!
started by: muskrat
Posted by muskrat on April 22 2006,05:05
I like DSL, I have it installed on my Laptop with a standard HD install using grub as the bootloader. The install basicly works like any other debian distro. With the great Knoppix hardware detection and runs very fast and small foot print on my system.BUT!!!!!
I was reading the thread with the poll of why more of us didn't use frugal install? My vote was "Because of the lack in understanding frugal install!" After which I read several post with the pros and cons on both HD install and frugal install.
After which I decided to give frugal a try!
And found that even though this board is full of threads persuading people of the great benifits of a frugal install, and one fine fellow even made a great PDF on how to do a fine frugal install. Then were left with a system we don't understand. No more documentation on how to administrate a system that is done in frugal install.
I have two questions right now. I might have more later after I get past these. I'm not a Linux newbie, nether am I a guru. I'm just a PC repairman that has choicen Linux as my OS of choice. And have used it now for three years stright.
Frist off, do to the nature of the bullet proof system, Lilo configuration is different than a normal system. Why was Lilo choosen as the default bootloader? Since it was, shouldn't sombody that knows more than me make a small howto on editing Lilo after the install? After all it's seldom that you won't need to edit the boatloader.
Second problem I have is the frugal install didn't ask for a password for user DSL or root for that matter. So when you do a sudo, What is the password? If you do a sudo in the standard HD install, you just use user DSL's password.
Please don't take this wrong, I serously would like to understand the frugal method, But There seems to be so little documentation speific to that system.
I do love DSL, even if I have to retrun to a standard HD install inorder to use my system. But I was hopping to learn this frugal method, hoping someday I might could buy or build one of those silent PCs.
Posted by alb1954 on April 22 2006,05:43
I couldn't agree more.
Posted by doobit on April 22 2006,13:38
1. Lilo is not the default bootloader. You can also use GRUB. I personally prefer GRUB because it recognizes more file systems, and it's configuration file (menu.lst) is easy to edit.2. The nice thing about a Frugal install is that the developers, who are Linux users themselves, have thought of most of the issues surrounding its use. Frugal install has a couple of ways to manage commands and external programs. One way is using scripts. You can navigate all around DSL using the scripts that are already written for you. For example, the Frugal OS looks at /opt/bootlocal.sh everytime you boot up. It's a bash script that loads any path that's written in it, as root, when you boot, so you can put the path to certain other scripts into it to start programs, etc. It is like a .bat file in MSDOS. The first script that a Frugal install looks at is the boot command line script. That's the /boot/grub/menu.lst script in GRUB, for example. There are certain commands that are made to load from this script at boot time that modify the behavior of the OS as it loads. Some of these commands are general Linux boot line commands and some wer adopted from Knoppix, and some are unique to DSL. Anything in the boot command line that is place after the command "dsl" is unique to dsl or has been adopted from Knoppix. For example the commands
| Code Sample |
| dsl noapm host=lunchbox secure |
There is a partial list of these boot line commands that are accessible when you press the F2 and F3 keys at the boot prompt.
Also, you can make your settings permanent by adding the path to their scripts to the /opt/bootlocal.sh script, and to the filetool.lst script for apps. Any applications that you want to start at bootup can be made automatic by copying them to the / partition and adding the bootline command
| Code Sample |
| dsl mydsl=[the media where they are stored goes here] |
Posted by mikshaw on April 22 2006,13:43
As far as how-tos about using frugal in general, let me point out that a frugal system behaves in the same way as a live CD. Everything you'd do to run and maintain a live CD also applies to a frugal harddrive install, with minor differences here and there.
Posted by muskrat on May 04 2006,06:32
| Quote |
| 1. Lilo is not the default bootloader. You can also use GRUB. I personally prefer GRUB because it recognizes more file systems, and it's configuration file (menu.lst) is easy to edit. |
I beg to differ, I believe I followed the PDF Frugal HD install to the letter, except that the command given to kick it all off from the start was wrong, so I looked on the CD and found a file called frugalinstall.sh or something simalier. ( don't have the CD on hand at the moment)
As I went though the install, It installed LILO by default, not even given me the choice.
I also would much rather use Grub, for the same reason as you, but also It's much easier to edit, being the most user friendly bootloader I know of.
Posted by torp on May 04 2006,13:44
muskrat, i'm not sure which version of DSL you are using, but in 2.3 we have a choice of bootloaders just like doobit said. i will agree with you about the confusion of frugal. it took me months to understand what was happening, but the problem was me, or rather my mindset of using the old MS hd install model. once i understood that the frugal is really just a liveCD copied to a small partition on my hd (thus read only), i was able to understand how to interact with it. it reall works very similarly to a poor man's install of knoppinx using the "fromhd=/dev/hdb2" technique. i have experienced your frustration, so i know where you are coming from. try the 2.4rc2, boot with the "dsl install" option, choose frugal grub, and enjoy!torp
Posted by muskrat on May 04 2006,14:08
I have DSL 2.0, I guess it's time to up grade. I just put a larger HD and more memory in my Laptop, so I'll go get that upgrade.
Thanks. I really do want grub no matter what distro I use.
Posted by clivesay on May 04 2006,14:55
muskrat -Post any frugal questions, we'll all be glad to help. Let me know what you feel is lacking in the pdf howto.
Chris
Posted by piccolo on May 04 2006,16:47
Clivesay, the documentation written by you is very useful but why is not a direct link from DSL home page to that documentation?
Posted by muskrat on May 05 2006,00:15
Ok clivesay;Frist off let me express my gratatude to the developers, for a great OS. And I understand documentation is a differenet branch of development, but just as much work. Sometimes more work, depending on how fast an OS changes.
Frist off the Frugal install PDF, is great for the install of DSL in frugal. But due to the fact that the frugal install is basicly like the live CD, there are a number of issues that ariase later tring to configure the system.
So maybe it's not so much that the frugal install PDF is lacking, but rather is just the frist step, sort of a part one in a seres. Then maybe there should follow a Howto on configuring the system such as the boot loader, setting up passwords for root and DSL user, etc. Or maybe an indepth discussion of how and why the system is built the way it is, of course this could or should be a different Howto.
Of course I'm not asking except you ask me to ask. I believe there are quite a number of us average linux users that would enjoy the fruits of the frugal install if only we could get accross some of these potholes.
There is a couple of points on the current Frugal HD install PDF, these might have been fixed aready.
1st; There is a typo in the (At the command promt type: /usr/sbin/frugal_instal.sh) it should read frugal_install.sh double L. And maybe add a note, that this is only for version 2.3 and above, because I tried it with version 2.0 and that file goes by another name.
2nd: This is a point of personal perferance, if you followed some of the book conventions in other Linux manuels and books, you wouldn't need those screen shots, again thats just my perference.
3rd: All over this board people are disscussing installing frugal with an option of choicing LiLo or Grub as boot loaders, this PDF doesn't mention this, and nether does frugal_install.sh script give you that option.
Ok torp; I downloaded the 2.3 and the 2.4rc2 nether of which will give you a option of bootloaders if you follow the directions in the frugal hd install PDF. Now maybe there's another way to approach, which if there is I sure like to know. Because I'll tell you this much I can't live with LiLo, LiLo and I are not on the best of trems.
Posted by clivesay on May 05 2006,00:49
Thanks for the feedback.Doing a howto without the screenshots would definitely be simplier for me. Keep in mind, that howto is pretty old and was done before many people were trying frugal installs. Ke4nt and myself were making a real effort to communicate the advantages of this type of install to reinforce all of Robert's hard work in that area. I think that howto was created before grub became a part of the DSL base so, again, it's showing some age. I'm happy that people are using it and it appears all my harping on frugal has paid off since many more people are utilizing it now. I'll look at it and see if I can do a rewrite in text only format and see what everyone thinks.
Chris
Posted by muskrat on May 05 2006,01:10
You say the Howto is dated, but really the frugal_install.sh seems to be dated also. Or it's become the frugall_lilo install. By the way I found the means to install frugal with grub, but not from the CL, the new version 2.4cr2 has a GUI menu function of doing so.
But the script doesn't give you the oportunity to setup /opt /home backup and mydsl, like the lilo script.
So in that respect your PDF is really dated. I just wish I understood more about this system, this community seems to be young enough maybe I could help writing some Howtos. I just got to get a little better grasp on this liveCD enviorment.
Posted by roberts on May 05 2006,04:54
There is no option for persistent /home and or /opt in either frugal install script.Doing a persistent home and/or opt is not really a frugal install but instead a hybrid install.
This is achieved by boot options that can added to either lilo.conf or menu.lst or even the boot prompt.
These options are not defaulted because DSL by default favors being nomadic and not tried down to a particular machine.
With DSL comes many choices. And with each new release I am usually compounding the number choices.
Choices means reading and exploring. DSL is like tinker toys for the mind.
Tyring to document eveything that one can build with tinker toys is not easy, so only some examples are given.
When DSL had a testing group, we once tried to make a testing grid of all possible combinations and permutations to test.
I don't think it was ever completed.
More choices comming soon...
All documentation will be obsolete again...
But aint it fun!
The development that I added to DSL favors, frugal, favors nomadic, but the bottom line... DSL is about choices.
Posted by xxooss on May 05 2006,13:38
Well I will chime in here.I have been playing with DSL for a good while now and I must say I love it. What I do not love is the holier than thou attitude that always seem to permiate from some linux users. I have been trying now for over 2 weeks to get my frugal install to save all the setings i want it to. I have read and reread evey post i could find on the matter and i am only just a little dumber now after having read them.
I am certain all my frustration is from my own lack of knowledge of the linux OS but I am an expert in computers for the most part with 25+ years fooling around with them.
I think the main issue for me is in trying to understand the exact sequence of events that happen when DSL boots in frugal mode. Below is my menu.lst entry I use...
title DSL fb1280x1024
kernel /boot/linux24 root=/dev/hda1 quiet vga=794 noacpi noapm nodma noscsi frugal mydsl=hda1 restore=hda1 home=hda1 opt=hda1
initrd /boot/minirt24.gz [B]
I have dsl loaded as frugal install on a 1gb CF card running on the EPIA mini-itx board with the Samual 800mhz proc, 256 mb pc133 sdram. The install was done from a 256mb pendrive. No issues except for saving and restoring my settings.
I have tried and tried but to no avail. The /KNOPPIX dir being write protected was a nightmare, I couldn't even get emelfm to open in superuser but after finding < this post > I was able to get menu.lst edited.
I then proceded to AGAIN load up the apps I wanted from "my dsl" and then did a back up. In the back up text box i put "hda1" without the quotes.
Here is my .filetool.lst and .xfiletool.lst contents...
.filetool.lst.
##################################
opt/ppp
opt/bootlocal.sh
opt/powerdown.sh
opt/.dslrc
opt/.mydsl_dir
##################################
here is .xfiletool/lst.
##################################
Cache
XUL.mfasl
home/dsl/mnt
home/dsl/.jwmrc
home/dsl/.opera/cache4
home/dsl/.opera/images
##################################
I took out the line in .xfiletool.lst that said something about mydsl menu since I was tring to get my OS to be the same everytime I booted.
My main mission is to get this system set up so that it backs up and saves all my settings. I tried to do a backup to hda1 after getting all my files installed and when i come back and do a restore it has reverted back to the same way it was after the initial install except that the /opt directory seemed to show back up under /mnt/hda1. I am sure I am doing something wrong. What is the process you would recomend?
back up to hda1
then next boot do a restore,
when I did that i get nothing, nothing comes back on my desktop or in my menus.
I know that John and others are so sick and tired of answering the same questions over and over but to me that seems to indicate a need for better documentation, which takes time and money. I would highly recomend everyone either donating what you can or purchase from the dsl store. I bought my motherboard and power supply from them and prices are very much in line with other internet resellers.
What I am working towards is a noobs guide to dsl, and by noob i mean N00b!
Soooooooooooooo, any ideas on how to get my system saving my dsl aps etc?
Thanks
Posted by clivesay on May 05 2006,15:51
I'm not sure where the 'holier than thou' comment is directed? As far as your setup, give some more detail please. What all are you trying to backup? I notice that /home/dsl is NOT in your .filetool.lst so nothing is being backed up from that directory. You actually shouldn't need to backup /home and /opt if they are persistent. It looks like you're showing persistent /home and /opt on the same partition as the image. I'm not sure that will work correctly. If you have those dirs on a HD I would definitely recommend putting them on a seperate partition than hda1. Post some more detail and we'll get you setup.
BTW - I am starting to work on a text-only DSL Frugal install document that will have much more detail than the previous howto. Be patient
Chris
Posted by xxooss on May 05 2006,16:13
Thanks for the reply Chris and I hope we can get this working.As for the holier than thou comment, I guess its from my own frustration. I have found that its hard to get a answer that is doable for a noob. The answers always seem to be right but its like there is some step left out because its assumed the user should already know that. Lets leave that sleeping dog alone for the moment and try and get me straight.
Ok , so I want to back up my dsl spps and browser settings and desktop. This is to say that when I download an app and its installed and shows up when I right click, dsl apps etc. I had the system saving browser settings at one time but after messing it up I have reinstalled a number of times.
The reason my .filetool.kst is missing my dsl is because I am starting from scratch. This is how I think it should work. download apps amd install. Surf and set browsers cookies to my pages, hit back up to hda1...reboot, do a restore to hda1 and I would see all my icons on my desktop and my dsl apps woul;d be there.
If you need any more info please ask. I am waiting here all day untill I figure this out.
thanks again.
Phil
Posted by muskrat on May 13 2006,03:51
| Quote |
| With DSL comes many choices. And with each new release I am usually compounding the number choices. |
OK, I understand now how it's so hard to right documentation, with all the choices. Maybe I'll just go through this board and built a Tips and Tricks Howto. That might be the way. But I'll need to study the sytem a little more frist.
| Quote |
| I know that John and others are so sick and tired of answering the same questions over and over but to me that seems to indicate a need for better documentation, |
Maybe I was approching this the wrong way, Maybe the better document would be a PDF explaning the DSL Live CD system from Bootup to full X system.
I studied LFS for a while, and it did a lot for my comprehinsion of the Linux system. But DSL does things differently, I've seen some bits and picse on the web site. If you could build us a PDF system Blue print so to speak, high lighting places where DSL operates differently than a standard Linux system. It'd sure stop some of these repeat questions.
| Quote |
| I'm not sure where the 'holier than thou' comment is directed? |
I'm not sure what he might, but I've often fealt that much of the documentation in the Linux world is writen with the idea that you know something to start with. Building on the usomtion that you have a understanding which often isn't there.