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Topic: TESTERS NEEDED w/ HIGH SPEED ACCESS, Working on GTK 2 and .dsl packages.

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ke4nt1

Group: Members
Posts: 2329
Joined: Oct. 2003

Posted: Oct. 06 2004,17:18

Here's the scoop .. :cool:

I am working on making an extension for DSL that will allow...

1. Certain dependent packages to be centrally located ..
2. Easily upgradable to latest versions without rebuilding dozens of already-made extensions every time ..
3. Smaller extensions which are not burdened with carrying their own versions of dependencies
4. Reduced confusion about dependency versions..
5. Easier to add the "latest & greatest" packages to DSL
6. Less dependence on "wrappers" and so forth..

This is NOT a project that will be memory friendly for now..
This will open up the entire filesystem as writable, as this will be writing to usr/* etc/* ..
You will need a fair amount of RAM , a CDROM bootable system, and a HD partition to test from.
You will surely need High Speed Internet to make this work,
unless daily 30-40MB downloads or larger is your idea of fun on a dialup..

The idea here, which seems to work OK so far ,
is to create one large package which will contain the latest GTK, Pango, Defoma, Perl, etc..
This will allow the use of many apps, fonts, and tools to work together which require these packages..
All of them will pull from the same subset of dependent packages..
No more "gimp 2.0 had pango 1.4 and gtk 2.4, but abiword has
pango 1.2 and gtk 2.2, while firefox had pango 1.1 and gtk 2.0 ..

Obviously, this will require "factoring out" these files and dependencies from extension builds,
leaving only the app and unique attached files ..

So , for folks wanting to stick with the generic perl 5.8 , gtk 1.2, etc..
the existing extensions will still be available ..
This may be your only option for limited ram systems, slow/small systems, etc.. which is OK,
as I still upload apps which use the gtk1.2, existing perl and font management, etc..
Many of them are much faster and slimmer in operation than the "latest" versions...

But so many recent apps and programs want to see updated versions of packages like gtk, perl, pango, defoma, etc..
I think that the apps and programs will ALL work from a common set of the packages factored out and combined into a .dsl ..
same as if they were all installed together in a stock debian system..

This ".dsl" will need to be loaded prior to using any of these
specially-built apps, similar to needing gnu-utils.dsl or dsl-dpkg.dsl to do certain things in DSL.

So far, I have thrown together a minimal set of packages to test with.
It will eventually contain most all of pango, gtk, perl, etc..
In the interest of keeping it DamnSmall as possible, I am only adding what the programs and apps scream about for now..

My initial tests have been successful, and I want to test this with as many systems as possible before a true release to DSL ..
I plan to continue progress on this package for quite some time
before it is released into the DSL repository for public use ..
If you choose to grab these files, you do so without support or
guidance from DSL staff, since this is my personal project,
and am fortunate enough to have the privledge of using DSL
resources to share this with you..

THIS WILL BREAK YOUR HDINSTALLED DSL SYSTEM..
DO NOT participate in testing this if your beloved hdinstall is your platform for evaluation..

Make a partition for using DSL like a poorman's install
Simply copy the contents of your DSL CDROM to it, and use the
CD for booting..
( e.g. " dsl dma toram fromhd=hda3 " )

This way hosed builds only require a reboot to return to normal..
and removing the CD puts your system back in to your HDinstall or frugal without issues..
YOU WILL HOSE YOUR SYSTEM.. I WILL MAKE SURE OF IT..
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.. I WILL ATTEMPT TO BREAK IT..
That's the whole idea behind this testing, to find the breaks ..
e.g. everything up-to-date is A-OK..But I upload another package for testing..,
I know it breaks, but I want to know HOW it breaks on different systems.. get the idea.. ?!

I operate with dsl-dpkg.dsl and gnu-utils.dsl installed at boottime. Please test with the same , and no more..
This should be a pristine DSL Live CD/Poorman's environment ,
with only these two extensions loaded for now..

If you want to give this a go, using a shell, wget the following 4 files..

ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/damnsmall/pkg_test/gimp20_factored_out.dsl

ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/damnsmall/pkg_test/firefox093_factored_out.dsl

ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/damnsmall/pkg_test/abiword_factored_out.dsl

ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/damnsmall/pkg_test/update_gtk_pango_defoma.dsl

FIRST..
1. After downloading, install the update_gtk_pango_defoma.dsl ..
2. Then run as root the /usr/bin/update_gtk_pango_defoma executable file.

This is the package that I will be focusing my attention to,
and adjusting to include the dependancies that different apps will require..
For now it is a dumping ground for files and deps ..

SECOND..
Try installing either /all combinations of these three apps here that require deps. The idea is to catch any files or situations
where one may break another by , for example, overwriting a lib with an older version, etc...

THIRD..
Feedback to this thread as to errors, omissions, and app performance...
Does it work?
DO they ALL work independantly?
DO they all work together?

Input is welcomed..

If all goes well, adding additional apps to the mix, as well as additional packages to the "dump" would be next..

It is my hope that most all of these reduced "apps" can be
converted into .tar.gz's, and the larger ones made into .uci's
Then only the ONE BIG DUMP.dsl is resident in the extended mkwritable filespace.
This means that only the big guns will benefit here,
as a 233 with 32MB ram will never fly properly with so much
writable filespace enabled, and such a large package.dsl file installed..
Of course, once the buggies are worked out, it could be
installed to a HDInstall , but then there is no going back..

I have a mozilla thunderbird and other GTK apps
already factored out and standing by to be added in ..

Awaiting feedback ..

73
ke4nt

ke4nt1

Group: Members
Posts: 2329
Joined: Oct. 2003

Posted: Oct. 06 2004,21:48

So far,

I find that I have to rerun the update_gtk_pango_defoma.dsl
after every dsl app is installed.
I've probably got something doubled..

And I need to add some fonts to abiword...
or point to where they are..

Also, I may edit the update_gtk_pango_defoma executable
to be able to run more than once..

ke4nt

cbagger01

Group: Members
Posts: 4264
Joined: Oct. 2003

Posted: Oct. 06 2004,22:43

ke4nt1,

I applaud your efforts to improve the dependency situation regarding DSL extensions and I have no doubt that your approach will work, but let me get a little bit off-topic for a moment:

<Stands up on Soapbox>

As designed, the myDSL extension system is not a true package management system (and as Roberts will point out, it was never intended to be), so it will always have these problems and other similar problems that the early attempts at Linux package management suffered from.

In my opinion, the best solution for this problem is (when it is appropriate to resolve dependency issues) to use the state-of-the art already existing package management system that is associated with DSL:

apt-get / dpkg

The advantages of using the apt-get / dpkg system compared to the old *.rpm format is obvious and I believe that these same advantages apply to a liveCD extension system as well.

Unfortunately, using apt-get / dpkg requires one dependency: the dpkg extension.

Also, a straight *.deb restoration does not result in the cool menus and icons that Roberts has built into the myDSL extension system.

So maybe the best solution is to use both... You would use the existing *.dsl system to include your menu items, desktop icons and other stuff and it would also include inside the tarball all of your *.deb files and a short wrapper that is run from the menu item and will install all of your *.deb files.

For a somewhat appropriate example, take a look at the alsadebs extension. It includes apt-get / dpkg restoration and the cool myDSL integration.

So basically the way things would work is:

Dependencies are factored out into *.deb + wrapper encased in a *.dsl file.
Library dependency extensions would have no Fluxbox menu item so could be a straight dpkg -i filename.deb

Executable programs would have the *.deb + wrapper + menu item or desktop icon + any needed userfiles

<Steps off of the Soapbox>

Let me know what you think about it. I could be completely off-base here but I figure that it's at least worth putting it out there for discussion.

ke4nt1

Group: Members
Posts: 2329
Joined: Oct. 2003

Posted: Oct. 06 2004,23:56

I like your ideas...
The thought of using the .debs to install via myDSL is enticing.

I had visions of placing extensions inside extensions, in which
one would be the .debs + install wrapper, as a subset,
then placed inside another extension, with another wrapper +
the icons, menus, addons, plugins, etc..

Similar to what you describe..

But in fact, when installing the *.deb files via dpkg -i --force-all,
I run into the same issues I'm trying to avoid with the .dsl extensions..
And using a wrapper to install debs defeats the package management that apt-get provides..

Most of these .dsl files were either built/rebuilt by me or contributed by DSL users..
Most ALL of us have used your fabulous deb2dsl script to build the .dsl files, then rebuilt from there to remove docs, mans,
unneccessary bulk, and/or repackage them into .tar.gz's or .uci's to keep memory usage down to the minimum needed for
lowram/slower cpu's/boxes ..

The issues are that the .debs are full of stuff used in
kde, kdemenu, gnome, xf86, etc.. that are not needed in DSL ..

Also, If I go by the .debs, like the abiword, gimp, firefox, and many others
that were built using the deb2dsl, I get the same scenario..

Firefox , from debs, uses gtk2.X and pango1.x and perl 5.x
Gimp2.0 , from debs, uses gtk 2.2.x and pango 1.4.x and perl 5.8 x
Abiword, from debs, uses gtk2.0.x, pango 1.1.x, etc...

So I get 3 gtk's , 3 pangos, 3 perl's, etc..

The mydsl system of using wrappers allows you to change the
LD_LIBRARY_PATHS and export different paths to substitute
the latest versions of these packages for the usual package.
This is history if I use .debs instead of .dsl files ( tarballs )

If I were to use the apt-get scenario, which would take care of the multiple installed packages,
then each time I bootup a LiveCD of DSL, I would have to answer to dpkg and apt-get
about defoma and pango EVERY TIME i wanted to use the "gimp2.0" for example..
Same as installing it apt-get to a HDinstalled system for the first time..
So, when "firefox" 1.0 rc-whatever comes out, which uses a
later version of a package than the "gimp2.0" ,...
Then the next time I use "gimp2.0" ,it's forced install makes it overwrite
the libs and packages to an older version, or simply adds its older version to the filesystem.
Now I'm back at the same issues I had before..

So my thoughts were to "factor out" the Latest and Greatest
Perl, GTK, Pango, Defoma, and the newest libs for most packages ( libXft.so and libXcursor.so , for example )

Then I'd have only ONE package to update , which could work with ALL the extensions that require part or all of them.

If I'm barking up the wrong tree here, let me know..

We're on the same page here, I believe...

Please feel free to point out errors in my thinking, methods, or
debate the value of this outcome..

73
ke4nt

ke4nt1

Group: Members
Posts: 2329
Joined: Oct. 2003

Posted: Oct. 07 2004,05:40

Here are the latest builds, which now includes perl 5.8.3

Use wget to obtain and test these 4 new files ...

ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/damnsmall/pkg_test/gimp20_factored2.dsl

ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/damnsmall/pkg_test/firefox093_factored2.dsl

ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/damnsmall/pkg_test/abiword_factored2.dsl

ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/damnsmall/pkg_test/update_gtk_pango_defoma_perl2.dsl

I will dump a few more in here tomorrow to add to the melee !

Remember, install the update_gtk_*.dsl first ..
Then run/exec the update_gtk_* in /usr/bin to build the necessary files for defoma/pango ..
Then explore the other three titles ..

So far, I have been able to install any/all and run them with success ..

73
ke4nt

15 replies since Oct. 06 2004,17:18

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Damn Small Linux Board » MyDSL Extensions » myDSL Extensions (deprecated) » TESTERS NEEDED w/ HIGH SPEED ACCESS